End of Game Timing Situation
 

I had this happen a couple of weeks ago...

Team B is up 2 points and his shooting the first of a bonus free throw with 1.1 seconds on the clock. Team A's coach tells my partner that he wants a time out immediately, should his team get the rebound off a miss. B1 misses the free throw, and sure enough A1 gets the rebound and my partner blows his whistle for the timeout.

I look at the clock and it's down to .1 seconds, and of course, Team A's coach is not happy about it. At first, we aren't going to change the clock since none of us have definite knowledge of how much time should be left on it, even though it's obvious that there's no way a whole second should have come off. But we decide to get together and talk about it, and ultimately decide that we should put some time back on the clock, as... like I said... no way did a whole second go by between when the player from Team A secured the rebound and my partner blew his whistle for the timeout. My partner, who is the R, decides to have them set the clock at .8 seconds.

Turns out Team A threw a pass all the way to the three-point arc, and the guy made a turn-around three at the buzzer to win it for Team A.

I'm fine with our decision, although I thought we probably should have put something like .6 seconds on the clock instead. But the rules don't support our decision because, like I said, we didn't have definite knowledge of the time.

What do you all think?

What does your supervisor/assignor think?

He was OK with what we did.

Definite Information ...
 

I guess that it depends on what one's definition of definite information is?

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to
start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information
relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may
be placed on the clock.

TIMING MISTAKES AND CORRECTIONS

5.10.1 SITUATION A: The score is tied with two seconds remaining in the game. A1 is awarded a bonus free throw. After the ball had been placed at the disposal of A1, B1 disconcerts A1. The free-throw attempt is missed. The timer does not hear the official's whistle sound and permits the clock to start. May the referee put the two seconds back on the clock? RULING: Yes. The rules provide "…the referee may correct the mistake when he/she has definite information relative to time involved." The referee not only orders the timer to put two seconds back on the clock but also awards A1 a substitute throw for the disconcertion by B1.

5.10.1 SITUATION C: As the official rules a three-second lane violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows five seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at five seconds; (b) at four seconds; (c) at three seconds; or (d) the time runs out completely. RULING: No correction is needed in (a). In (b), (c) and (d), the referee will order five seconds put on the clock.

5.10.1 SITUATION D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1 touches the official on the court and then goes across the court and out of bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does the coach of either team have in such situation? RULING: Either coach may step to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11-4 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

5.10.1 SITUATION E: Team A scores a goal to lead by four points with 10 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Team B then quickly scores with approximately five seconds remaining; now trailing by two points. Team A expects to withhold the ball out of bounds for the throw-in with the time remaining (less than five seconds). The timer mistakenly stops the clock shortly following the Team B goal; the game clock reads 4.0 seconds remaining. The official sounds the whistle, (a) immediately to address the timing mistake; (b) after reaching a throw-in count of three to address the timing mistake; or (c) upon reaching a five-second throw-in count on Team A. RULING: In (a) and (b), Team A will have a throw-in from anywhere along the end line with (a) no change to the game clock; and (b) the game clock corrected to display 1.0 seconds. In (c), the game is over as time has expired. COMMENT: An official’s count may be used to correct a timing mistake. (5-10-2)

5.10.2 SITUATION: Following a violation in the fourth quarter, there are five seconds on the clock as A1 is bounced the ball for a throw-in. The throw-in is completed to A2. The official properly signals the clock to start and immediately begins a closely-guarded count on A2. The official reaches a count of three seconds when B1 fouls A2. The official stops play properly and reports the foul at the table. The timer reports that he/she did not start the clock when the throw-in was touched by A2. The clock still shows five seconds. RULING: The referee will order the clock set at two seconds. The referee has definite knowledge of the amount of time involved in this situation by using the closely-guarded count.

When end of game is near and clock is an issue (because of score) have a count...Even if you are C or L. Inbounds is touched and you move your arm halfway. That’s definite enough knowledge. .5 of second.

Even if you don’t move your arm you can say it was half second. Put time on clock. Trying to say it was .2 or .3 is likely a guess.

Not much of a guess... I suspect that the person used the rule on catch and shoot to assist in determining this time. I wish they’d just put it in the book for other situations so it is legitimate.

Agreed. NCAAW has a *minimum* of .3 in this situation -- I wish they'd allow for a *specific* .3 when the referee(s) know it's immediate.

Whether this still applies or not????

2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 8: As the official calls a traveling violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows 55 seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at 55 seconds; (b) at 54 seconds; (c) at 53 seconds; or (d) 50 seconds. RULING: In (a) and (b), there has been no obvious timing mistake. The timer should be able to react and stop the clock in one second when the whistle is heard and/or the signal is seen. However, in (c) and (d), more than one second of time elapsed from the time the signal was given until the clock was stopped. The referee will order 55 seconds put on the clock in (c) and (d). COMMENT: By interpretation, “lag or reaction” time is limited to one second when the official’s signal is heard and/or seen clearly. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a “lag” in stopping the clock. Additional time which may subsequently run off the clock (after the one second lag time) is considered a timing mistake and may be corrected. (5-10-1)

Exact Time ...
 

"Lag time" ended in 2006-07, when "exact time" was added to the rule.

5-10-1:The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to
start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information
relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may
be placed on the clock.

COMMENTS ON THE 2006-07 RULES REVISIONS

LAG TIME ELIMINATED (5-10-1): This change eliminates the need for lag time or reaction time on the part of the clock operator. The referee may put the exact time observed by an official back on the game clock. The committee felt that with new clock technology and the ability to observe tenths of a second, when an official has definite knowledge relative to the time involved, he/she should have the ability to put the correct time on the game clock.

Can anybody cite the old "lag time" rule and/or interpretation, I can't find it, other than to cite its elimination?

Thanks Billy!

Lag Time ...
 

Is it possible that the only interpretation of "lag time" is cited in Indianaref's citation, 2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 8?

There must be earlier rules or interpretations?

Looked twice, can't find any.

Dream ...
 

2004-05 Casebook: 5.10.1.B "Reaction time"

Was this ever a rule?

Did I dream this?

This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.
(The Impossible Dream)

How about a little help from Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

What level was this? I find it difficult to believe that anyone, less than a professional, could get off a turnaround 3-point jumper in .8 seconds.

Anyway...The ref who was told about calling the TO should have been prepared to immediately blow his whistle on the defensive rebound and immediately look at the clock in order to have direct knowledge of time. That same official, who knew what was to happen, would have prevented all of the other delays/discussions/etc. and the crew would have looked great at such a crucial time.

I'm curious. Can the coach pre-ask for that TO, or does he have to actually ask once his team has possession?

Pre Timeout Request ...
 

We've discussed this on the Forum in the past.

It is my belief that while a pre-request may get our attention to watch for the subsequent actual request, the coach actually has to follow through with an actual oral or visual request for a time-out.

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual
request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
a. The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured
player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a
substitute(s) is available and required.

My procedure: "Coach, you still have to request it. I'll be watching".

As usual, check your local listings.

These requests always come with a prerequisite, i.e.: "if we make the free throw I want a time-out", "I want time-out when we get the rebound", etc. If the prerequisite occurs, and nothing else, I go ahead and honor the request.

This is one of those "when in Rome" or "do what's comfortable for you" situations.

Time Out Reservations In Advance ...
 

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.i...=0&w=276&h=173

I often like to scrutinize rules by looking at extremes.

Pregame coaches/captains conference: "Hey BillyMac, I'm going to want a thirty second timeout at the first dead ball after the two minute mark of the first period". BillyMac, "Sure coach, let me write that down."

Also extreme: Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I want a sixty second timeout after we score". Team A doesn't' score. Team B gets a rebound and moves upcourt where they shoot and miss. Team A gets a rebound, moves upcourt where they score. BillyMac: "Sixty second timeout granted to Team A". Team A coach, "No, I wanted it back then". BillyMac: "You said you wanted a sixty second timeout after you scored, and you just scored".

Or: Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I want a sixty second timeout after we score". Team A doesn't score. Team B gets a rebound and moves upcourt where they shoot and miss. Team A gets a rebound, moves upcourt where they score. No time out is orally or visually requested, nor is one granted. Team B inbounds the ball, easily breaks the hastily set up full court press, and moves upcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I said I wanted a sixty second timeout after we scored, and we just scored. What's the story?".

I'm not a big fan of taking time out reservations in advance, just walk-in timeouts.

But If a coach preorders (sorry, mixed metaphors), I will pay close attention to get his timeout granted in a timely manner.

Again, when in Rome.

Indeed, slippery slope applies however, that is because you are, essentially, using the entire game as the qualifying scenario.

If an official is going to honor the pre-requests, then the scenario needs to be narrowed, and it is strongly encouraged that you advise the coach to still verbally request it. If not, a coach could always argue that they did not request it earlier, making the official look very bad.

For me, the scenario is narrowed to be only during a certain period of the game. The pre-request is made during dead ball period immediately before live ball period when actual request takes place.

This eliminates your extreme cases and I cannot think of any other times when this protocol would not work as strategically designed by the coach.

IOW, use your judgement when applying this technique. Allow it as strategic points in the game where it would be logical on the coach's part.

I'll Be Watching And Listening ...
 

Agree.

I always tell them,"Coach, you still have to request it", and always followup with, "I'll be watching and listening" (letting him know that I heard him and understand the situation).

Don't want, "Hey BillyMac, you screwed up, I changed my mind, I don't want the timeout, I'd rather save them, plus I never orally or visually requested a timeout".

Exactly where in any rulebook, or mechanics manual, is there a coach's visual timeout signal listed?

We all know it when we see it, but where is it listed?

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.w...=0&w=300&h=141

Since you are not comfortable with it, you should not honor such requests. Thus my statement in my original post--->

"This is one of those "when in Rome" or "do what's comfortable for you" situations."

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Billy:

I have always done it the same way at all levels that I have officiated and that is how I taught my students to do it the same way. You reasoning for requiring the HC to request the TO is spot on as well as required by Rule.

MTD, Sr.

I lean toward Raymond (must be a Virginia thing) and also agree with bucky that this concept is amplified at strategic game points, particularly end-of-game scenarios.

My crew applied this perfectly a few weeks ago in a nail biter. Game tied 50-50, 15 seconds left, turnover at division line. I’m C opposite and I can see the coach who just lost possession talking to my partner at T. He had one timeout left and I knew exactly what they were talking about (it didn’t take a rocket scientist). Sure enough, there’s a score (by the time I look up I see 1.9s) and an immediate whistle, but all was drowned out by crowd noise. Timer didn’t hear the whistle, clock expired, home crowd rushed the court. So we’re giving the, “nope, not done yet, everyone get back” body language, and then my partner puts 2.3 back on the clock. He knew the exact time even better than I because the coach had “reserved” the timeout in the event of a score, thereby allowing my partner to think about looking at the clock exactly when he blew the whistle, which he did (and no, he didn’t visually confirm with the coach, he just blew the whistle, and I was proud of him for doing that). When you gotta go the length of the court, that 0.4s difference can be big.

That was my favorite “communication” moment so far this season.


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One Lump Or Two ???
 

Officials don't make the "T signal" when reporting timeouts, we use the "T signal" for another purpose.

I find it odd that while the NFHS allows a visual request for a timeout from a coach, it doesn't state exactly what that visual request should be.

https://tse2.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=219&h=165

Just Curious ...
 

Did the coach yell, "Time out"?

Even if nobody was looking at him, did the coach give the "T signal"?

Not a rule question, not criticizing, just curious.

This was a highly strategic situation and it sounds like your crew was spot on.

In this situation, even without a pre-request for a timeout, everybody in the crew should be expecting a request for a timeout, and try to get a peek at the clock when the ball goes through the basket.

That's why we get paid the big bucks.

Boys varsity.

This is where philosophy comes into play. I do honor them now if it is a made basket or something like that. Otherwise I tell them to ask anyway. Because I do not want to be ultra concentrating on a rebound or some other action. A made basket is a little more defined and can often easier to judge. A rebound might not result in an immediate possession of the ball.

Peace

The NFHS also does not state exactly what the oral request should be. There are too many ways (ok, not a whole lot but still more than a few) to make an oral request just as there are too many ways to make a visual request. Ergo, it is not specifically defined.

Strangely, many lower level officials do not hear well and/or are not aware of the coaches. Many times coaches could be screaming "Time-out!!", running towards the ref, and waving arms frantically to no avail. Official finally grants it after a few seconds have passed. :confused: