Throw-in NFHS
 

Team A scores a basket. Everybody but B1 & B2 run up the court. B1 in bounds the ball and runs up the court. B2 does not control the ball, but just puts out his/her hand and stops the pass. The ball falls to the floor and stops bouncing. B2 then bends down to tie their shoe.
When does the 10 second count start?
Is it different between NCAA and NFHS?

Throw-in NFHS
 

Count starts as soon as the ball is legally touched. Team B has team control in this entire sequence. The rulebook states “A player must not be, not may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds” continuous team control in the backcourt would begin as soon as the ball is touched in the backcourt.

See 9-8 NFHS.


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In NCAA-Men's, the shot clock and 10-second count begin when the ball is legally touched inbounds.

I have found no rule, case play, or past interp in the NFHS that would allow us to begin a 10-second count in your scenario.

Same for NCAAW

This is not true.

Team control during a throw-in (and the subsequent loose ball when the throw-in is legally touched but not controlled) is for foul purposes only. Team control for violation purposes (10 seconds, backcourt, 3 seconds) does not start until there is player control.

Team Control on a throw in only applies to fouls committed by a player on the throw in team, not to violations such as 3 seconds or back court violations. The confusion based on 9-8 has been discussed here before. The ten second count does not begin until a player from Team B has gained control in the back court. A similar play to illustrate is Case Book 4.12.2.B

Throw-in NFHS
 

My supporting argument to counter this would be that the throwing in team had team control and never lost it. Once the ball is touched by a teammate of the thrower in, the 10 second count begins due to team control in the back court. Same thing if a defender tipped the throw in pass. Team B is still in team control and the count will begin unless someone on Team A were to gain player control.

The only reason I brought up team control on the throw in was to illustrate that Team B had team control once the ball is legally touched in the backcourt, unless player control is gained by a member of team A.


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Continuous Control ...
 

NFHS 9-8: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

"Continuous control".

NFHS 4-12: CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM
ART. 1 A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or -
dribbling a live ball. There is no player control when, during a jump ball, a
jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper,
or during an interrupted dribble.
ART. 2 A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
ART. 3 Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.
ART. 4 While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in
control of the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap
for goal.

Situation 10 is not the same as the original post but the language is quite clear, "continuous control".

2017-18 Interpretations
SITUATION 10: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her backcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball onto the court. A1’s pass to A2, who is also in Team A’s backcourt, takes several bounces and six seconds before A2 picks up and controls the ball. RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the 10-second rule specifically requires that a player/team be in continuous control in its backcourt for 10 seconds for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the backcourt. (4-35-2, 9-8)

Backcourt Count ...
 

Nice citation billyu2.

4.12.2 SITUATION B: During a throw-in by A-1 from the
end line by Team A’s basket: (a) A2 is in the restricted lane
area for four seconds of the throw-in count; or (b) the throw-in
is touched by A2 before it goes across the division line where
it is recovered by A3. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b), even
though Team A is in team control during the throw-in. There
is no three-second count in (a) since team control had not yet
been established in Team A’s frontcourt. There is no
backcourt violation in (b) since team control had not yet been
established in team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into
Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally
touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until
A3 gains control in his/her backcourt. (9-7, 8, 9)

Maybe my original reply was poorly worded but I think we are on the same page here. The count begins when B2 touches the ball in this example.


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Is There Team Control On A Throwin ???
 

It depends.

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
2. Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

Holds Or Dribbles A Live Ball Inbounds ...
 

No it doesn't.

The ten second count begins when a player holds or dribbles a live ball inbounds.

I am having fun NOW
 

To add onto the original play.... The possession arrow is pointing towards Team A. The Trail Official sounds his/her whistle. Signals 10 second/Back court violation.:eek:
Now what do you do? :confused: Team B never established Team Control. Inadvertent Whistle from Trail Official.

...If team A isn’t pressing team b can just touch the ball in bounds and sit in the backcourt as long as they’d like?



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This also doesn’t make sense. other than a field goal or free throw attempt There is NEVER a live ball situation where team control does not exist. If what you’re saying is true, that would mean if team B commits a foul while the ball is sitting there in the back court and team A were in the bonus, we would shoot free throws, which is NOT the case.


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Eight Minutes ...
 

Only until the end of the period buzzer sounds.

Welp, I’m glad I no longer play on the off chance you’d be officiating.


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Player Control Is Obtained Inbounds ...
 

Since the "team control foul" period on a throwin ends when player control is obtained inbounds, and since player control had not been established inbounds, then there would be no free throws.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member
of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from
the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.

Team Control Foul ...
 

Regardless of the explanation of why this is a team control foul your initial statement about not starting the 10second count until player control is obtained is incorrect.


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[QUOTE=rwodar;1035010]Regardless of the explanation of why this is a team control foul your initial statement about not starting the 10second count until player control is obtained is incorrect.

It is not incorrect. The Case Play that was cited 4.12.2b specifically tell us on a deflected throw in pass there can be no 3 second violation, no over/back violation and a 10 count cannot be started until the player gains control. Again, team control on throw in plays only applies to fouls committed by the throw in team. Please give us a specific citation from the RB, CB or Officials Manual that says the official should start the count when the throw in pass is touched/deflected.

Reading Is Fundamental ...
 

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
2. Team control, throw-in ...Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

NFHS 9-8: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

NFHS 4-12: CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM
ART. 1 A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or -
dribbling a live ball.

[QUOTE=billyu2;1035011]

4.12.2b doesn’t quite make sense to me... in the situation they say team a is inbounding in the backcourt but then also say that the ball “crosses the division line” implying when A3 gains control it would be in the from court...THEN in the ruling they say “the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in the backcourt..? The ruling contradicts the situation.


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Just to add another voice to the many correct once, since someone doesn't want to believe it...

* Team control for fouls begins when the thrower has the ball.

* Team control for ALL other purposes begins when a player inbounds established layer control.

Both forms of team control end in the same way: dead ball, other team gains control, or a try is released.

This rule really needs to be rewritten. I may take that challenge on now.

[QUOTE=rwodar;1035013]The Case Play starts with an end line throw in by Team A at the basket they are attempting to score at. The deflected pass then goes into Team A's back court. The spot of the throw in doesn't matter since all throw ins originate out of bounds any deflected throw in to that team's back court would still not require a ten count to start until a player from that team gained control of the ball.

Until The End Of The Period Buzzer Sounds ...
 

And if B1 makes a throwin pass from under Team B’s own basket, while Team A is just passively sitting back in a zone defense, and B2 just touches, but does not control the throwin pass while in Team B’s frontcourt near the division line, and B2 just puts out his hand and touches the pass, the ball falling to the floor, eventually not bouncing, all while B1, B3, B4, B5 are standing in the lane, I’m not starting a three second count, and in fact those four players can stay in the lane until the end of the period buzzer sounds if B2 never holds or dribbles the ball, and just allows it to remain on the floor at his feet.

rwodar. How do you like them apples?

I wave the white flag here and concede that there is nothing in the rule book to support my argument. This is a wild scenario that I was wrong about, the 10 second discussion conflicts with the college rule (count starts once ball is legally touched) and it blows my mind how flawed the HS rule seems to be. My apologies for being abrasive about it.


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Indeed, why not rewrite the NFHS rule for team control (and, by extension, the backcourt 10-second count) to match the college rule? If there is team control for 1 purpose (fouls) why not have team control for other purposes as well.

Throw-in NFHS
 

I am in complete agreement here... the fact that a situation exists based on the rules where a team can sit in the back court unguarded for significantly longer than 10 seconds is absurd.


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Scary Stories To The Young'uns ...
 

Is team control during a throwin a two year old Point of Emphasis that rookie officials would only fully and truly understand by the oral traditions of old, grizzled, veteran officials sitting around a campfire eating beans, passing gas, and telling scary stories about ancient Points of Emphasis to young'uns?

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.9...=0&w=324&h=167

Can I circle back here? Are we saying no team control exists between the time the throw in ends (B2 touches it in the back court) and someone gaining player control?


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You are confusing team control for foul purposes and team control for everything else. This is understandable if you haven't read NFHS interps/comments since the rule as written still leaves something to be desired.

Team control for foul purposes begins when the throw-in begins. A loose ball following a legal touch would still be under team control of the throw-in team for fouls only (i.e. we don't shoot FTs).

For violations there is no team control until player control is established inbounds. This is why a throw-in that is deflected by A1 in his FC that is then touched by Team A in its BC is not a BC violation.

Thank you. Can this be found in the 2019-2020 rule book?


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Player Control Is Obtained Inbounds ...
 

Agree.

The "team control foul" period on a throwin ends when player control is obtained inbounds.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.

Citation ...
 

Yes.

So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.


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Additional Citations ...
 

Which is why we need additional citations:

9-8: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

Fouls (Rule 10) and violations (Rule 9)? Apples and oranges.

Because we do not have a shot clock (which is why the rule changed) and not everything that college creates is gold. I have no issues with the current NF rule about any of this.

I have been officiating, watching and played for over 30 years of my life and forgive me as I have never once seen what you suggest is "absurd." For one the defense is not sitting and waiting for anyone to just stay in the backcourt. When you see that happen, let me know. And once you have control of the ball, you have a count, which also is going to happen because they are not giving the ball away to the defense easily.

You really are making this way too complicated. It really is not that hard to understand. The count for 10 seconds only starts once the team in control has actual possession of the ball in the backcourt. It has nothing to do with the throw-in control.

Peace

Never, Ever ...
 

Absolutely agree. Absurd is a good description. Never observed it. Never will.

But sometimes rules and definitions take on a new light when examined under ultra extreme circumstances that will only happen never in an officiating lifetime.

I'm sure that most of us have observed teams legally taking more than ten seconds to get the ball across the division line after the first inbounds touch after the throwin pass, legal because the thowin pass was fumbled around, maybe rolling around on the floor, before eventually being picked up, caught, or dribbled.

I've seen interesting situations in prep school games because here in Connecticut prep schools use hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules. NFHS rule for ten second count (starts at holding or dribbling), NCAA rule for shot clock (starts on first touch inbounds). Fans scream for ten second violations just because the shot clock has ticked off ten seconds. Stupid hybrid rules.

Simple. Terse. Correct.

Because they don't want to get into a bunch of other unintended consequences that would cause them to rewrite the entire rulebook and confuse people for 20 years.


The better solution is to go back to the old and complete team control definition and forget all about call it team control on a throwin. Instead, just declare that fouls that are committed by the throwing once the ball becomes live for a throw are team control fouls just like fouls by an airborne shooter are considered player control fouls even though the player doesn't have player control.

Back in old days the control, player and team rule, 4-12 did not contain 4-12-2d-“when a player of team has disposal of ball for throwin.” Also, 4-12-6 used to specifically say there is no team control during a throwin. It was clear back then team control was an INBOUNDS concept. There was also no team control foul definition.

They then decided they didn’t want to shoot so many free throws so they created team control fouls and said no FTs for those. As mentioned above, team control definition was an inbounds thing. So no FTs for illegal screens etc. by team in control of ball inbounds. FTs were still shot if the throwin team fouled during the throwin. (Assuming bonus)
They then decided they didn’t want to shoot FTs when throwin team fouled during throwin so they added 4-12-2d language.

Adding that language to the rest of rule 4-12 makes it read like once ball at disposal for throwin team control exists and continues until ball dead, field goal attempt etc. I understand the confusion of it because it reads like you interpreted it.

As noted by others, they added language to make it clear team control during throwin and in til player control is obtained is for foul purposes only.

They were not intending to change Violation concepts. BC count has always started when player controls ball inbounds. They were trying to eliminate some FTs and confused many folks.

There are only 2 logically consistent ways to resolve this conundrum of having team control exist (and simultaneously not exist) at different times for different purposes: either eliminate throw-ins from the discussion of team control altogether, or introduce a shot clock into NFHS basketball.

Some states use a shot clock with the visible 10-second count (MD boys), while others have modified their backcourt count rule to incorporate a non-visible count that starts per existing college rules (DC boys). In either approach, the states using a shot clock recognize that team control exists from the throw-in. The only question is whether player control is required (or not) to start the 10-second count off the throw-in. However, we (the NFHS rules-making and enforcing community) can decide this once a shot clock is adopted for high school basketball, whether nationally or by one's local state association.

Congrats on fessin up, even if it is 5 or 6 responses too late...

Overkill. The shot clock has absolutely nothing to do with this. There are many ways to fix that, all of which don't take the equivalent of using dynamite to kill a mosquito.

I think 4-12-2d should be removed. Then a 4-12-7 created to say” for foul purposes only, there shall be team control when ball at disposal of team for throwin until player control obtained inbounds.

Something like that to make it read better than it does now....

You could leave team control out of it entirely....no need to say there is team control at all.

Just like the "player control foul" says it applies to airborne shooters even though there is no "player control", you could simply say "team control fouls" apply to throwins even though there is no "team control".

They could even create a new type of foul that would apply to "offensive" players when there is no team control. It would apply to airborne shooters and throwing team players on throwins until team control is secured.

Bigfoot ...
 

The mythical, infamous "offensive foul".

Often talked about by television commentators but never actually observed, kind of like Bigfoot, but even more elusive.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.-...=0&w=325&h=163

Yes, create a throw-in foul category and revert to the old NFHS team control rule.

The jump ball before a player gains control.

Apologies if anyone addressed this aspect of his claims already, but I didn't see it in the thread.

With the shot clock, team control begins once a team has possession of the ball (or is entitled to possession by having the ball at its disposal). Since a team has control of the ball either inbounds or at its disposal, there is no reason to artificially create 2 different types of team control as NFHS rules mistakenly did. Because a team would already have control.once it has (or is entitled to) possession, and the shot clock is reset to its full value, having a shot clock would ease administration of the backcourt count rule, since team control.would not change unless player control.changes on the court or a shot is released, keeping in line with the normal interpretation of player control.

If the shot clock does not emerge, I would support creating a throw-in foul category as an exception to the bonus rules, so that there are not 2 different types of team control.

Shot clock still has NOTHING to do with all of those things. You could have all of those things simply by stating team control exists for all purposes when the throwin begins. They don't want that. Adding a shot clock to make those things happen is entirely unnecessary. They could make those things happen without a shot clock...and probably more easily than adding a shot clock.

You're making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be....the only wanted a way to have no FTs for fouls that occur during throw-in activity.

Not sure this would be a good rule. If I understand the idea correctly, this would enable the team that is behind to commit offensive fouls immediately after the release of each of their shot attempts causing the clock to stop while the try is still airborne, the attempt still counts if it goes, the opposing team would get no free throws just like the player control foul even though there is no player control. Plus the opponents would likely have an end line throw in allowing the team that is behind to set up their press.

Either adopt a throw-in foul as a special category, so that the opponents of the team throwing the ball in do not shoot free throws, or have team control be consistent across all purposes (fouls AND violations). The artificial separation of team control on throw-ins for the purpose of fouls, but not for other purposes, has created controversy and confusion among officials where before there was none.

This is not even that complicated. The rule is poorly written for the technical crowd, but it is clear what the rule is there to do. It has nothing to do with violations anyway.

Peace

I agree. I was not intending to comment on tries being in the air. Team control would still end on the release of a try. I only intended to talk about the way to cover the game from when the throwin is over (ball touched) until team control is secured.

Yet, several times a year, it needs to be explained to someone. Thus, it is a problem and should be cleaned up.

I do not disagree with it being cleaned up. But we also have people that try to turn the discussion into something it should not be or try to make more out of the confusion. The bottom line, the throw-in Team Control portion of the rule is only about a foul situation, not a violation restriction. Many rules like this have multiple elements to them, so this is not new. And people in those cases also have to have those things explained to them as well, that does not mean we need an entire rules change to make it more understood. This rule needs a wording correction most of all.

Peace