Conflicting Advice.

[Pantherdreams]

During our preseason training sessions on the weekend, a new official to our area but (an older veteran official) offered me some advice on having a more patient whistle.

Situation:

A1 takes off trying to take a long first step and throw the ball away from b1 to create separation. He creates space and follow the ball. His pivot foot lifted before the ball was out of his hand.

Normally I would blow this as a travel as soon as I see the ball heading down and back foot come up. The advice was that since its not a dribble until the ball returns to his hand (ie. it could be a pass/fumble if another player manages to touch it before he does) then I should be waiting until he there has been a bounce off the floor and 2nd touch to confirm dribble.

In most dribbles this is close enough/clear enough that I don't see it as an issue, but in the case of long dribbles/steps I feel like if I delay until the ball returns to his hand we could be several steps or feet from the play (depending on the type of dribble) and it will look like the play has continued by the time the travel is blown and called.

I honestly feel good about knowing a dribble when I see one, and haven't ever been caught with oops that was a pass. I will however defer to the wisdom of the group.

[Camron Rust]

The dribble does begin when the ball is released from the hand, not when it returns to the hand. However, in some cases, it may be ambiguous. . It isn't that the 2nd touch makes it a dribble, it just confirms it was a dribble all along. If there is any doubt as to what it may be, I do recommend waiting to confirm which it is, but when there is not doubt, there is no need to wait. The player has released it on a pass or a dribble and if you can tell, make your ruling accordingly. The player doesn't get to change his/her mind once they realized a mistake has been made in order to avoid a violation...the violation has already occurred.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The dribble does begin when the ball is released from the hand, not when it returns to the hand. However, in some cases, it may be ambiguous. . It isn't that the 2nd touch makes it a dribble, it just confirms it was a dribble all along. If there is any doubt as to what it may be, I do recommend waiting to confirm which it is, but when there is not doubt, there is no need to wait. The player has released it on a pass or a dribble and if you can tell, make your ruling accordingly. The player doesn't get to change his/her mind once they realized a mistake has been made in order to avoid a violation...the violation has already occurred.

I agree with Camron. Also we’ve discussed this before on the forum and the NFHS has a casebook ruling stating when the violation occurs as Camron writes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... the NFHS has a casebook ruling stating when the violation occurs ...

Not disagreeing, but would like a citation please.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not disagreeing, but would like a citation please.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

(Emphasis mine, From the 2016-17 book, which is what I have accessible at the moment).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

Doesn't answer the original post.

This is a carry, the illegal dribble variety, not a travel, and there's no indication that a pivot foot has been lifted as stated in the original post.

Regarding 4.15.4 SITUATION A, it states "in an attempt to continue the dribble" which makes this situation real easy.

What if it was stated without that phrase?

NEW SITUATION: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 then pushes the ball to the floor.

Could this be the start of a bounce pass, possibly a real ugly bounce pass, and wouldn't one have to wait to see if it was a dribble by noting if A1 touched the ball again?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Doesn't answer the original post.

This is a carry, the illegal dribble variety, not a travel, and there's no indication that a pivot foot has been lifted as stated in the original post.

Regarding 4.15.4 SITUATION A, it states "in an attempt to continue the dribble" which makes this situation real easy.

What if it was stated without that phrase?

NEW SITUATION: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 then pushes the ball to the floor.

Could this be the start of a bounce pass, possibly a real ugly bounce pass, and wouldn't one have to wait to see if it was a dribble by noting if A1 touched the ball again?

Camron's case can be extrapolated to the OP. In both cases (dribble comes to rest/pivot foot is lifted) it is illegal to subsequently dribble.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Camron's case can be extrapolated to the OP. In both cases (dribble comes to rest/pivot foot is lifted) it is illegal to subsequently dribble.

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Precisely...it clearly defines that a dribble is begun by pushing the ball to the floor without any requirement that it be touched again. The fact that the case is about a carry is irrelevant to the question.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

...(dribble comes to rest/pivot foot is lifted) it is illegal to subsequently dribble.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...it clearly defines that a dribble is begun by pushing the ball to the floor without any requirement that it be touched again.

4.15.4 SITUATION A also clearly states "in an attempt to continue the dribble" which makes this situation a lot easier than if it didn't state it.

A cowboy hears hoofbeats and thinks horses, not zebras.

An official sees the ball released and thinks dribble, when in fact, it may be the start of a bounce pass.

Now that we've defined the beginning of a dribble how would one define the beginning of a bounce pass?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.15.4 SITUATION A also clearly states "in an attempt to continue the dribble" which makes this situation a lot easier than if it didn't state it.



A cowboy hears hoofbeats and thinks horses, not zebras.



An official sees the ball released and thinks dribble, when in fact, it may be the start of a bounce pass.

It doesn't matter. We're still talking about a restriction on when someone can subsequently dribble.

I am in the camp of waiting to see what happens next unless I can clearly tell it's a dribble, for example he pushes the ball straight down to the floor and there are no other offensive players within 20 feet. But if he pushes the ball away from himself and there are other teammates who may be able to touch the ball next, then I'm holding my whistle.

Judgment, it's why we get paid the big bucks.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I am in the camp of waiting to see what happens next unless I can clearly tell it's a dribble, for example he pushes the ball straight down to the floor and there are no other offensive players within 20 feet. But if he pushes the ball away from himself and there are other teammates who may be able to touch the ball next, then I'm holding my whistle. Judgment, it's why we get paid the big bucks.

Well stated. Agree 100%. I'm in the same camp.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It doesn't matter. We're still talking about a restriction on when someone can subsequently dribble.

I am in the camp of waiting to see what happens next unless I can clearly tell it's a dribble, for example he pushes the ball straight down to the floor and there are no other offensive players within 20 feet. But if he pushes the ball away from himself and there are other teammates who may be able to touch the ball next, then I'm holding my whistle.

Judgment, it's why we get paid the big bucks.

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Same!