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-   -   3 Person Mechanics Changes 2019 (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104745-3-person-mechanics-changes-2019-a.html)

The_Rookie Sat Oct 05, 2019 05:19pm

3 Person Mechanics Changes 2019
 
A few members in my association believe there were a mechanics change for 3 person high school under the following situations:

1) Lead Opposite table calls foul on offense and no free throws...No Switch?

2) Lead Table side calls foul on offense and no free throws..No Switch?

Are there any other mechanics changes for this season?

Thanks!

SC Official Sat Oct 05, 2019 07:52pm

We hardly ever long switch here.

EDIT: Now that I'm in Georgia which uses NCAA-W mechanics, we never long switch.

ilyazhito Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 1034732)
A few members in my association believe there were a mechanics change for 3 person high school under the following situations:

1) Lead Opposite table calls foul on offense and no free throws...No Switch?

2) Lead Table side calls foul on offense and no free throws..No Switch?

Are there any other mechanics changes for this season?

Thanks!

What state are you? Per standard NFHS mechanics, Lead opposite goes to C tableside and L tableside goes to L tableside at the other end of the court in the situations you describe. Per standard IAABO mechanics, Lead Opposite goes to Lead opposite on the other end of the court, and lead tableside goes to Center opposite.

The main mechanics change this season is that the stop-clock signal is required prior to signalling held balls. The IAABO manual also allows bouncing the ball up the line as Lead on throw-ins below the free throw line extended, and redefines pass-crash coverage to have C take the crash on pass-crash scenarios where the ball is passed to the strong side (the side with Lead and Trail), as well as explicitly defining coverage on plays with secondary defenders.

Note: Arizona, Ohio, and Louisiana switch opposite the table without using IAABO mechanics. Louisiana does not use long switches, at least not per the 3-person mechanics presentation available on the LHSAA website.

Freddy Sun Oct 06, 2019 07:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 1034732)
A few members in my association believe there were a mechanics change for 3 person high school under the following situations:
1) Lead Opposite table calls foul on offense and no free throws...No Switch?
2) Lead Table side calls foul on offense and no free throws..No Switch?
Are there any other mechanics changes for this season?

Thanks!

My new 2019-21 NFHS Officials Manual, having just arrived yesterday from another state I work in, is here in front of me. Just did a surf and survey through it to compare it with the previous edition. The two changes cited above are not found in the text. It's probably true that the "long report and return" mechanic is unofficially followed in many places beholden to NFHS mechanics. But it's not in the NFHS manual. The only real changes are a few wording revisions and a correction of the previously switched around signals #38 and 39. Some speculation existed that they'd have officials "go opposite table" after reporting, but it appears that the NFHS is still the only major mechanics set to "go tableside". I think.

ilyazhito Sun Oct 06, 2019 07:38am

The long report is official practice in Texas and Michigan. However, the long report is not approved in other places. Therefore, the officials saying that the long report is now approved are in error.

bob jenkins Sun Oct 06, 2019 08:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1034735)
Some speculation existed that they'd have officials "go opposite table" after reporting, but it appears that the NFHS is still the only major mechanics set to "go tableside". I think.

NCAAW goes tableside.

The_Rookie Sun Oct 06, 2019 09:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034734)
What state are you? Per standard NFHS mechanics, Lead opposite goes to C tableside and L tableside goes to L tableside at the other end of the court in the situations you describe. Per standard IAABO mechanics, Lead Opposite goes to Lead opposite on the other end of the court, and lead tableside goes to Center opposite.

The main mechanics change this season is that the stop-clock signal is required prior to signalling held balls. The IAABO manual also allows bouncing the ball up the line as Lead on throw-ins below the free throw line extended, and redefines pass-crash coverage to have C take the crash on pass-crash scenarios where the ball is passed to the strong side (the side with Lead and Trail), as well as explicitly defining coverage on plays with secondary defenders.

Note: Arizona, Ohio, and Louisiana switch opposite the table without using IAABO mechanics. Louisiana does not use long switches, at least not per the 3-person mechanics presentation available on the LHSAA website.

California

The_Rookie Sun Oct 06, 2019 09:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1034738)
NCAAW goes tableside.

The officials who raised this question work D2 womens. I wonder if what I described above is different in NCAA W than California HS:confused:

SC Official Sun Oct 06, 2019 09:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034736)
The long report is official practice in Texas and Michigan. However, the long report is not approved in other places. Therefore, the officials saying that the long report is now approved are in error.

You have too much time on your hands.

Also, what is "approved" is all relative to what your state does. The NFHS Manual is not the Internal Revenue Code. In South Carolina they never mandated the long switch when it was put in place and left it up to crews to do it however they wanted.

bob jenkins Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 1034740)
The officials who raised this question work D2 womens. I wonder if what I described above is different in NCAA W than California HS:confused:

Let me clarify:

On the OP -- no long switch in NCAAW.

On other fouls -- calling official goes tableside.

On the OP in IL -- if L calls foul, go tableside (either new L or new C, depending on the exact situation); if T or C call foul, no switch (although it might cause a rotation, depending on the exact throw-in spot).

Freddy Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1034738)
NCAAW goes tableside.

Thanx for your response, Bob. Didn't know that. Now I think different.

ilyazhito Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:13pm

Walk and talk (reporting while on the move), signals to start the clock, not stopping the clock on certain violations (OOB, 5 seconds, 10 seconds), and no long switches from the Lead are all differences between NFHS and NCAAW mechanics. PCAs and last-second shot coverage are also different.

Some HS officials may walk and talk and do no long switches in 3-person games in CA, but those practices are not approved in CA. CA uses NFHS mechanics, other than specific signals and procedures for the shot clock.

Raymond Mon Oct 07, 2019 05:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034749)
Walk and talk (reporting while on the move), signals to start the clock, not stopping the clock on certain violations (OOB, 5 seconds, 10 seconds), and no long switches from the Lead are all differences between NFHS and NCAAW mechanics. PCAs and last-second shot coverage are also different.

Some HS officials may walk and talk and do no long switches in 3-person games in CA, but those practices are not approved in CA. CA uses NFHS mechanics, other than specific signals and procedures for the shot clock.

High school officials all over the country walk and talk while reporting even though it's not authorized in their state.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

JRutledge Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1034753)
High school officials all over the country walk and talk while reporting even though it's not authorized in their state.

Officials do a lot of things they are not authorized to do or told is not in our mechanics. This is the reason there are training tapes with this information showing wrongdoing.

Peace

SC Official Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:08pm

Not surprisingly, most of the high school officials I deal with who get hung up on every detail of the Manual are not good play-callers or game managers.

Matt S. Mon Oct 07, 2019 03:12pm

This
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034759)
Not surprisingly, most of the high school officials I deal with who get hung up on every detail of the Manual are not good play-callers or game managers.

Bingo. Also, NBA officials go tableside on shooting fouls.

JRutledge Mon Oct 07, 2019 04:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034759)
Not surprisingly, most of the high school officials I deal with who get hung up on every detail of the Manual are not good play-callers or game managers.

They are hung up on terminology that even if you use a term that is not "perfect" they will ask you, "What is a secondary defender?" I swear the FB pages are the most annoying example of this kind of thinking.

Peace

SC Official Mon Oct 07, 2019 05:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1034769)
They are hung up on terminology that even if you use a term that is not "perfect" they will ask you, "What is a secondary defender?" I swear the FB pages are the most annoying example of this kind of thinking.

Peace

And the term "secondary defender" made it to the Manual a few years ago.

JRutledge Mon Oct 07, 2019 05:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034770)
And the term "secondary defender" made it to the Manual a few years ago.

Well, you cannot tell it to some people, because last season there were people asking what that was and saying it was not in the manual.

Maybe a better description would be when we talk about a player "gathering the ball." You get people here, "Where is that in the rulebook?" I am just glad I do not work with many of those people.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Oct 07, 2019 05:51pm

Best Of The Best ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034759)
Not surprisingly, most of the high school officials I deal with who get hung up on every detail of the Manual are not good play-callers or game managers.

Being good play-callers or game managers and having good mechanics do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Some have the whole package and can do it all.

ilyazhito Mon Oct 07, 2019 07:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034770)
And the term "secondary defender" made it to the Manual a few years ago.

For those of us in IAABO boards, this term was also added to the IAABO manual this year.

SCOfficial, to your point, I strive to be a good playcaller and game manager as well as someone well-versed in the rules and mechanics.

SC Official Mon Oct 07, 2019 09:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1034772)
Being good play-callers or game managers and having good mechanics do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Some have the whole package and can do it all.

I never said they were mutually exclusive.

My point was that all these “purists” get so hung up on being technical that they don’t even bother trying to improve in the things that actually matter.

Also, following the Manual to a T doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with good mechanics. The Manual still says we’re supposed to give a prelim on every foul. Who the hell teaches or actually does this in real life? And some of the most by-the-book officials I know have the worst-looking mechanics. You can tell they’ve never seen themselves on film or practiced in a mirror.

I would take a partner any day who is sharp, crisp, and can manage a game but may occasionally use an “unapproved” yet more descriptive signal to the table (which is another issue with the NFHS altogether) over a pedantic, overly technical partner who doesn’t have much to offer other than book knowledge and telling people when they do something that isn’t 100% by the book.

SC Official Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034773)
SCOfficial, to your point, I strive to be a good playcaller and game manager as well as someone well-versed in the rules and mechanics.

Being well-versed is different than being pedantic. Officials who only care about what the book says and don’t talk about the more important things are rarely officials I am impressed by or want to work with.

SC Official Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1034771)
Well, you cannot tell it to some people, because last season there were people asking what that was and saying it was not in the manual.

Maybe a better description would be when we talk about a player "gathering the ball." You get people here, "Where is that in the rulebook?" I am just glad I do not work with many of those people.

Peace

Some officials need every single thing spelled out for them.

JRutledge Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034775)
Also, following the Manual to a T doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with good mechanics. The Manual still says we’re supposed to give a prelim on every foul. Who the hell teaches or actually does this in real life? And some of the most by-the-book officials I know have the worst-looking mechanics. You can tell they’ve never seen themselves on film or practiced in a mirror.

Funny you say that. It is what we are supposed to do at by those that run the state, but I rarely see officials do it to a tee. I also agree, that those might have decent signals, but cannot rotate properly or call in their area or give good secondary help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034775)
I would take a partner any day who is sharp, crisp, and can manage a game but may occasionally use an “unapproved” yet more descriptive signal to the table (which is another issue with the NFHS altogether) over a pedantic, overly technical partner who doesn’t have much to offer other than book knowledge and telling people when they do something that isn’t 100% by the book.

This explains most college officials I know. Sorry to those but I love working with guys with solid college experience because of that very fact. They might not be perfect, but they understand the game.

Peace

SC Official Tue Oct 08, 2019 08:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1034778)
Funny you say that. It is what we are supposed to do at by those that run the state, but I rarely see officials do it to a tee. I also agree, that those might have decent signals, but cannot rotate properly or call in their area or give good secondary help.



This explains most college officials I know. Sorry to those but I love working with guys with solid college experience because of that very fact. They might not be perfect, but they understand the game.

The only thing that bothers me is when I'm in a high school pregame with a college official (and I am one of those) and he wants to talk about college stuff, be it rules or just bragging about himself. All that does is confuse non-college officials and makes it feel like you are big-timing. Thankfully this does not happen too much.

Once we get out on the floor, I don't really care if you use a signal that isn't in the back of the book. I care if you get plays right, are a good partner, apply the correct rules and switches, communicate well, handle business, and manage the game.

Raymond Tue Oct 08, 2019 08:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1034772)
Being good play-callers or game managers and having good mechanics do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Some have the whole package and can do it all.

Thanks for the compliment. :D

I pride myself on doing it all, adding in rule book knowledge as well. Rules and mechanics competency are completely under the control of each individual referee.

I started off being a good play-caller and have gotten better by listening to those who have been successful in this profession. Game manager has a few aspects to it (controlling players/dead ball officiating/common sense decision making/fruitful communication with coaches). I'm still working on improving my communications styles w/coaches. I'm still learning in regards to that aspect.

The_Rookie Tue Oct 08, 2019 09:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034777)
Some officials need every single thing spelled out for them.

Many times these are same officials who don’t take responsibility for their calls and performance,.. They blame their instructors and others by saying you said and yea but!

SC Official Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 1034783)
Many times these are same officials who don’t take responsibility for their calls and performance,.. They blame their instructors and others by saying you said and yea but!

I've unfortunately worked with many a high school official who doesn't care about anything other than what the books say.

On the flip side, I can't stand officials with a too-good "I'm not a rules guy" mentality, no matter what level they work. A lot of college officials have piss-poor rules knowledge but get away with it by looking pretty and getting their partners to bail them out.

BillyMac Tue Oct 08, 2019 03:10pm

Read Them The Riot Act ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034781)
The only thing that bothers me is when I'm in a high school pregame with a college official and he wants to talk about college stuff ... just bragging about himself ... are big-timing ...

Saw this a lot a generation ago, don't see it very often with the younger guys, somebody most have straightened them out.

Camron Rust Tue Oct 08, 2019 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034781)
The only thing that bothers me is when I'm in a high school pregame with a college official (and I am one of those) and he wants to talk about college stuff, be it rules or just bragging about himself. All that does is confuse non-college officials and makes it feel like you are big-timing. Thankfully this does not happen too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1034790)
Saw this a lot a generation ago, don't see it very often with the younger guys, somebody most have straightened them out.

Oh, it still happens.

Was working with a young official a couple season ago who was just picked up for his first college season and was doing this sort of stuff.

When we go in at halftime, he starts in about how college guys always communicate better, specifically about end of quarter communcation. He was suggesting we really need to communicate being under 1-minute and who had the last shot. About that time, another official who was watching the game and joined us for halftime chimed in ad said...."Bobby (name changed), Cam had his hand up trying to communicate with you for a long time and you never looked". Needless to say, he had a lot less to add to the halftime discussion after that. :rolleyes:

Raymond Tue Oct 08, 2019 05:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034781)
The only thing that bothers me is when I'm in a high school pregame with a college official (and I am one of those) and he wants to talk about college stuff, be it rules or just bragging about himself. All that does is confuse non-college officials and makes it feel like you are big-timing. Thankfully this does not happen too much.



Once we get out on the floor, I don't really care if you use a signal that isn't in the back of the book. I care if you get plays right, are a good partner, apply the correct rules and switches, communicate well, handle business, and manage the game.

I'll sometimes have somebody who will ask me about college stuff and I will redirect the conversation back to high school rules and mechanics. The only time I want to discuss college stuff is if I'm on a crew with college officials and we're clarifying a rules difference or mechanics difference.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

SC Official Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1034792)
I'll sometimes have somebody who will ask me about college stuff and I will redirect the conversation back to high school rules and mechanics. The only time I want to discuss college stuff is if I'm on a crew with college officials and we're clarifying a rules difference or mechanics difference.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

This makes sense.

My main issue is with college officials taking digs at the high school game/officials in the dressing room.

"The college rule is so much better."
"Glad I don't work too many of these."
"In my college games..."
"Not sure what you guys do at your level, but at my level..."

Thankfully, it's rare but I have worked high school with other low-level college officials who have some air of superiority.

JRutledge Wed Oct 09, 2019 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034803)
This makes sense.

My main issue is with college officials taking digs at the high school game/officials in the dressing room.

"The college rule is so much better."
"Glad I don't work too many of these."
"In my college games..."
"Not sure what you guys do at your level, but at my level..."

Thankfully, it's rare but I have worked high school with other low-level college officials who have some air of superiority.

That type of talk here would get you called out to some extent. For one there are people that know what you do or do not do. So if someone said that to me, I probably already know whether you do college ball and how much realistically. So some could only get away with that only so much anyway. The officials there are well known and do not need to talk like that.

Peace


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