Throw-in question
 

This happened to me twice in the last week. I cannot find a direct rule or a case play. Player A1 is inbounding the ball after a made basket. He attempts to pass the ball to player A2, but at the last second decides not to and the pass goes up in the air and A1 catches his own pass. The pass never crosses the endline. A1 then successfully passes the ball to A2 before the five second count ends. Your thoughts? Thanks.

Chuckle and keep counting.

Directly Into The Court ...
 

9-2-4: Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass
directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.

The ball didn't go directly into the court on the first attempt (a fumble, or a muff).

Always listen to bob, keep counting.

Thanks!
 

Thanks Bob and Billy. That is what I did.

I see your point however the OP neither had a fumble nor a muff. The OP indicated 3 times that the inbounder included a pass.

Let's try this: Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)

This is a big nothing.....also ball crossing the endline (or not) has no bearing on the play.

Here's couple of puzzlers based on a similar sitch:
what if ...???

1-B1 reaches across the endline and gains possession of ball that A1 tried to pass?

2-BI reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm while A1 is in possession?

3-B1 reaches across the endline and whacks A1's arm after A1 has released the inbounds pass?

4- (extra credit) B1 reaches across the endline and gains joint possession of ball with A1?

The thrower must keep one foot on or over the throw-in spot. In this case, the out of bounds area behind the end line. So A1 violated in your scenario.

You have to decide if this is a violation of 9-2-6 or not.

Not after a made basket.

On ALL throw-ins???
 

Does this apply to ALL throw-ins?? Including non-spot throw-ins such as after a made basket?? Thanks!

Bullet Points ...
 

Bullet points for the good of the cause:

A player inbounding the ball may step on, but not over the line and onto the court. The “traveling rule” is not in effect during a throwin. During a designated spot throwin, the player inbounding the ball must keep one foot on, or over, the three foot wide designated spot. An inbounding player is allowed to jump, or move one or both feet. A player inbounding the ball may move backward as far as the five second time limit, or space allows. If player moves outside the three foot wide designated spot, it is a throwin violation, not traveling. In gymnasiums with limited space outside the sidelines, and endlines, a defensive player may be asked to step back no more than three feet. A player inbounding the ball may “dribble” the ball on the out of bounds area prior to making a throwin. After a goal, or awarded goal, the team not credited with the score shall make the throwin from any point outside the end line. A team retains this “run the endline” privilege if a timeout is called during the dead ball period after the goal. After a goal, or awarded goal, any player of the team may make a direct throwin, or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate outside the boundary line.

The defender may not break the boundary plane during a throwin until the ball has been released on a throwin pass. If the defender breaks the boundary plane during a throwin before the ball has been released on a throwin pass, the defender’s team will receive a team delay warning, or if the team has already been warned for one of the four delay situations, this action would result in a team technical foul. If the defender contacts the ball after breaking the boundary plane, it is a player technical foul and a team delay warning will be recorded. If the defender breaks the boundary plane, and fouls the inbounding player, it is an intentional personal foul, and a team delay warning will be recorded. It is an intentional personal foul if the defender fouls the inbounding player, even without breaking the boundary plane, however, in this specific case, there is no delay of game warning because the defender did not break the boundary plane.

The inbounding player does not have a plane restriction, but has five seconds to release the ball, and it must come directly onto the court. The ball shall not enter the basket before it is touched by another player, nor may it become lodged between the backboard and ring or come to rest on the flange before it is touched by another player. Following throwin violations, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throwin at the original throwin spot. The ball can always be passed into the backcourt during a throwin. This situation is not a backcourt violation.

Where's The Throwin Violation ...
 

As written, why would this situation be any type of a throwin violation?

No designated spot. A1 doesn't cross the boundary and touch the inbounds side of the court. Pass is made within five seconds. Pass is eventually made directly to A2 (who I assume is directly on the court). No crossing the boundary, nor any interference with the passer, or with the ball, by the defense.

Where's the possible throwin violation?

Because the first "attempted" pass didn't go directly onto the court?

Let's discuss.

Self Pass ...
 

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

bucky is right. Fumble was my feeble attempt to describe this situation. Close, but no cigar.

It has been debated ad nauseam here on the Forum regarding whether, or not, one can make a self pass.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or
rolls the ball to another player.

I try to avoid describing a self pass, or an attempted pass that doesn't reach another player, as a "pass" (I will use the phrase "attempted pass", or "tried to pass" (like justacoach)).

Kind of like "endline" versus "base line", I just try to avoid the issue to stay in the good graces of all Forum members.

The thread should have ended at post #2. This is not that complicated.

Peace

Very Interesting ...
 

The "direct rule" wjc3 asked for came in post #3.

Agree, but it's the off season and the "double pass" makes this interesting, especially in regard to things that "could" happen.

https://tse2.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=222&h=167

You missed the entire point if you think this is about the rule being quoted.

Peace

Sit In A Boat And Drink Beer All Day ...
 

We found it for him.

If you subscribe to the "give a fish, or teach to fish" philosophy, that's a great philosophy, but a few of us don't subscribe to it in regard to treating the Forum as a reference source.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.X...=0&w=276&h=175

JRut (and others) - How would you respond to my case play? Thoughts?


"Team B scores a basket. During the subsequent throw-in, your 5-second count is at 4 and A1 and A2 are out of bounds behind the endline. Inbounder A1 throws a pass, which travels high and over the endline, and you stop your count. In a surprise move, A1, still out of bounds, steps back, and takes a running leap, jumps over the endline, catches the ball in the air, and throws it back to A2, who is still out of bounds. This stepping back, catching, and throwing back to A2 action, took more than 2 seconds.

When A1 caught his own pass, was that legal?
When the official stopped counting, is there recourse?
Can the official resume counting? If so when? Or is it simply a 5 second violation even though the count was stopped but you knew it took longer than 5 seconds?
What does "directly on the court" mean?

Officials stop counting on the release, not when the ball touches something. So in the OP, should not have the official stopped counting once the pass was released? (remember it was not a fumble/muff, but rather a pass)"

Self Pass ...
 

Interesting situation.

Keep in mind that some esteemed Forum members do not subscribe to the idea that there can be such a thing as a "self pass".

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or
rolls the ball to another player.

Even if it's not a self pass, it's still interesting because many of us would temporarily stop counting on the "release".

Nevadaref also brings up an interesting point:

As does justacoach:

https://tse1.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=208&h=161

The bottom line is do you have a fumble or an actual pass? I do not think you should be such in a hurry to stop a count until you know they are actually passing the ball. So some of this is if there clearly is a pass, you will know. If there clearly is a fumble which is a temporary loss of the ball, you know the difference or should take enough time to know the difference.

I do not know if what you are asking is that deep. This is why you need to see plays. If you feel that the situation might be a fumble, then you know to not be so quick to stop a count. I am not blowing my whistle until I clearly have a violation for 5 seconds anyway. I guess we could do the mental gymnastics of what could happen to a situation that most of us have never seen (I do not think I have ever seen this play in life). But is that helping you with the normal stuff we do?

Peace

Nuts And Bolts ...
 

I agree with you 100% that all of us should be working on doing a better job on things that we see 99% of the time, and not go off willy nilly getting into the weeds with fanciful situations that we would never see if we officiated for one hundred years (like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.).

And I agree with you 100% that all of us could do the "mental gymnastics" of counting to five in this odd situation. We're all basketball officials, we're all trained to make quick decisions under stressful conditions, even when some situations may seem somewhat out of the ordinary.

That being said, there is some value in digging into the rulebook and casebook in a detailed manner regarding really "odd" situations, more so in the "quiet" off season. Regarding this thread, I posted bullet points for throwin situations and have reviewed them over and over as I read posts and replies from different members. While nothing jumped out at me, it was still a valuable review.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1032962

I have no issues with getting into the rulebook or casebook about plays and situation during any time of the year. I just feel we should not live there on certain situations. If we know the definition of a fumble as opposed to a pass, then this situation should be easy to figure out. Until you actually pass the ball, the count for a throw-in continues. Just like I probably am not going to stop a count of a player bounces the ball on the floor when making a throw-in attempt, because it is clearly not a pass either. Yes is it possible to fumble the ball on a throw-in? It sure is, but is this situation going to cause you that much strife in your mind? It really shouldn't. Because whatever you call is not likely to cause much conflict if you explain it right. But if someone is clearly not passing the ball, then I am not going to stop the count to because it is unusual looking. They only have 5 seconds, something will have to be done soon. Not sure how you can restart the count as even an option? They have either violated by making a pass or they still have not made a pass. Make a decision and move on.

Peace

Real Plays, Real Interpretations ...
 

All great points, especially the fumble, and the "dribble", plays that we've all have actually seen in real life, in real games, many times, and interpreted properly.

Of course, we occasionally run into a "deer in the headlights" rookie official, who doesn't know if the basketball is stuffed, or inflated, who calls an illegal (double) "dribble" on an inbounder, or a "travel" on an inbounder leaving the designated spot, or doesn't recognize a fumble caused by the official poorly handing, or bouncing, the ball to an inbounder.

Great point Jrut. Let's focus on the norms.

Now, for weirdos like me that can't let stuff go....

You indicated "..have either violated by making a pass or..." How is it a violation by making a pass to one-self in this case? Case 4.44.3 Sit C indicates that it is a traveling violation to throw a ball in the air, take several steps, and catch it. However, we also know that the traveling and dribbling rules are not in effect for a throw-in (rule 4-42 note). In this strange case, then it would not be a traveling violation.They also have not made a pass because the ball has not moved from one player to another.

Back to what Jrut concluded, let's worry about what happens 99% of the time and not the other stuff. This case appears to neither fall under any defined rules nor any case plays. The actions are legal and the official has to discern when to end their 5-second count.

If you know traveling and dribble rules do not apply on a throw-in, why invoke those situations in this situation? This is why I said what I said. The only issue is if they did not throw a pass directly onto the court, which is a HTBT situation anyway and some judgment would be used if a pass was not allowed to go directly onto the court as that is a violation. I would also assume that the player never gets onto the court or they did not leave their designated spot.

Again, I get it trying to figure out the holes in the rules, but do not live there.

Peace

Nice Place To Visit, Wouldn't Want To Live There ...
 

I don't live there either, and I don't ever want to live there. But I don't mind an occasional visit, a very short visit.

Especially "visiting" with some guys here on the Forum.

Most of my local colleagues have no interest in theoretical make believe basketball rulings.

They view such as a huge waste of their time, with little, or no benefit to them, in some cases, having a negative confusing effect on them.

And like JRutledge, I get that, and I respect that as well.

In the real world of physics and time, if I'm up to 4 and the thrower-in releases the ball, jumps in the air, catches the ball, then throws the ball to A2 who is OOB, all those actions will most definitely take up a full second. So I will call a 5-second violation. I don't need to swing my arm to keep track of 1 second of time.

I'm quite sure I've made that specific observation multiple times. ;)

Rule Changes ...
 

While I can easily separate theoretical rule discussions from real game rule dissuasions, I do have an Achilles heel, rule changes, not new rules, but rules that change, in a few cases, back and forth, more than once, over decades (free throw release, or the hit, jump balls caught by jumpers, swinging elbows, kicked throwins, double fouls, etc.)

I've always said it's not the rules, it's the rule changes that cause problems for me. The easiest rules for me to learn were the rules that I learned in my first year. After that, new rules were easy. Existing rules that changed, and maybe changed again, were always difficult.

Jump balls caught by jumpers? Lose the ball, lose the arrow. Not anymore.

Excessive swinging elbows? Violation? No. Technical foul? No. Violation.

Kicked alternating possession throwin? Illegal touch, but still a touch inbounds. Alternating possession throwin ends? Or does it?

Now, where are my car keys?

This is irrelevant. If a thrower-in throws the ball to himself, he has violated the rules concerning the throw-in. For a throw-in to be legal, it must touch another player on the court inbounds. A throw in to oneself does not meet that requirement. Case closed.

Tossing The Ball Into The Air ...
 

And he has five seconds to accomplish this. While a few things that he can do in the five seconds time interval would be illegal, like stepping across the boundary onto the court, or throwing the ball into a basket, I'm not sure that tossing the ball into the air to himself is one these possible violations if accomplished within the requisite five seconds.

Is the case still closed?

You are not quite understanding the case. He throws it to himself while having OOB status. There is no violation in this. It would be a violation if they threw the ball, stepped IB, and was the first to touch the ball.

Also, this is not 100% accurate. (it is legal to throw the ball to a player out of bounds. A violation? Yes, but still legal - rule 9-2 Art 2)



How about this one:

After made basket Team B, ball bounces near corner near official. A1, in a hurry and OOB, grabs ball and throws it to nearby IB teammate. The ball strikes the official on the arm and caroms back to A1 who is still OOB. A1 then passes to A2 who is IB. Legal?

This would depend on whether the official was inbounds or not. If the official was out of bounds, legal play. If he was inbounds, it is a throw-in violation, because it touched the court inbounds (an official is considered part of the floor), and went out of bounds without touching a player on the court.

Did the scenario say that he threw the ball to himself while out of bounds? If so, that would be a legal play, albeit one that might lead to a 5-second violation.

What I meant about legal was a play that would not be a violation or cause a violation. Only throwing the ball to a player who is inbounds, to another out of bounds player after a made basket, or to oneself without crossing the boundary line is legal, and only if no other rule is broken.

Words Matter ...
 

"To oneself without crossing the boundary"?

Crossing the (plane of the) boundary line, or crossing the boundary line and stepping inbounds?

Not the same. Words matter.

A player is inbounding the ball and a parent yells, "He's stepping on the boundary line". Officials often want to sound the whistle, stop the game, and say, "The player can step on the line, but not over the line onto the court".

Crossing the boundary line and stepping inbounds.