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-   -   New Mexico St v Auburn vid request (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104470-new-mexico-st-v-auburn-vid-request.html)

Nevadaref Thu Mar 21, 2019 02:29pm

New Mexico St v Auburn vid request
 
Second half 3:00 left

Blocking foul on the primary defender or charge with the secondary defender?

JRutledge Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:21am

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/p4tDulpPocs" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

bob jenkins Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:46am

Charge -- if that defender got there in time

Camron Rust Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:59pm

The first defender certainly fouled him then the offensive player charged.

I'd be fine with going with the first foul. Without it, the offensive player may have been able to avoid the charge.

JRutledge Fri Mar 22, 2019 01:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1031426)
The first defender certainly fouled him then the offensive player charged.

I'd be fine with going with the first foul. Without it, the offensive player may have been able to avoid the charge.

I love the call. I do not see the defender extend his arm or body to the dribbler. The dribbler goes where he wants to go and never changes direction. I would consider the contact before the charge for sure, but hopefully, do nothing else than consider the contact.

Peace

Camron Rust Fri Mar 22, 2019 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1031428)
I love the call. I do not see the defender extend his arm or body to the dribbler. The dribbler goes where he wants to go and never changes direction. I would consider the contact before the charge for sure, but hopefully, do nothing else than consider the contact.

Peace

Are you sure? Look at the defenders left arm extended into the dribbler for 2-3 steps before the charge. It is certainly there. The only question is whether it was enough. Without it, could the dribbler have veered more towards the lane and either avoided the subsequent contact entirely (not likely) or at least made it so that the defender wouldn't have got to the spot in time (possibly)? I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the dribbler. The C was doing so too before the L was hot on the call....if he was on the primary and letting the L take the secondary.

chapmaja Fri Mar 22, 2019 01:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1031426)
The first defender certainly fouled him then the offensive player charged.

I'd be fine with going with the first foul. Without it, the offensive player may have been able to avoid the charge.

I personally would go with the foul on the defense first. I see enough contact to call the foul on the defender. I also give Pearl credit for keeping his composure on this. I've seen him go off on much less than this in the past.

bucky Sat Mar 23, 2019 06:15pm

Everything avoided if C calls that first armbar-ish foul.

JRutledge Sat Mar 23, 2019 06:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1031434)
Are you sure? Look at the defenders left arm extended into the dribbler for 2-3 steps before the charge. It is certainly there. The only question is whether it was enough. Without it, could the dribbler have veered more towards the lane and either avoided the subsequent contact entirely (not likely) or at least made it so that the defender wouldn't have got to the spot in time (possibly)? I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the dribbler. The C was doing so too before the L was hot on the call....if he was on the primary and letting the L take the secondary.

From my point of view, yes I am sure. It is called judgment. Not calling that a foul at any time honestly.

Peace

bucky Sat Mar 23, 2019 09:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1031497)
From my point of view, yes I am sure. It is called judgment. Not calling that a foul at any time honestly.

Peace

Not arguing, just adding something, based on my experience as well as college assigner/clinician's input.

Many times, when that first foul (armbar-ish) is not called, the subsequent play/action is difficult to officiate. IOW, by not calling it, something difficult to officiate results. By calling it, especially early in a game if possible, it sets a tone for players, specifically guards. It also is usually easy to match up on both ends because it is a frequent defensive tactic. Most college players are not able to play through it and it impacts their drive/play.

From an overall game perspective, calling it helps out the entire game. It is rarely called in the NBA because players either stop or play through it. In both cases, the subsequent action is not difficult to officiate.

JRutledge Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1031509)
Not arguing, just adding something, based on my experience as well as college assigner/clinician's input.

Many times, when that first foul (armbar-ish) is not called, the subsequent play/action is difficult to officiate. IOW, by not calling it, something difficult to officiate results. By calling it, especially early in a game if possible, it sets a tone for players, specifically guards. It also is usually easy to match up on both ends because it is a frequent defensive tactic. Most college players are not able to play through it and it impacts their drive/play.

From an overall game perspective, calling it helps out the entire game. It is rarely called in the NBA because players either stop or play through it. In both cases, the subsequent action is not difficult to officiate.

OK, but all I am saying is the arm is just there. It is not extended or trying to direct him or even affects the path of the dribbler. I would need a little more to call a foul on that situation based on what I saw in the video. It did not IMO influence anything that happens with the block-charge. The dribbler had his mind made up that is where he was going and that is where he went.

But this is why they call it judgment. Just saying if I called that then we would have many more fouls in most games. Not that is always a bad thing, but not appropriate for the game in most situation IMO.

Peace

Multiple Sports Sun Mar 24, 2019 05:17am

I have a charge. As far as the arm bar, yes if this is an NCAAW game but on the men's side that arm bar is a no call, easy charge. You can't with 100% conviction say arm bar had an effect on the ball handler but the charge is a no brainer.

thedewed Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:29am

I let them play, but I see the first defender getting in to his body enough to turn it towards him.

SC Official Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports (Post 1031512)
I have a charge. As far as the arm bar, yes if this is an NCAAW game but on the men's side that arm bar is a no call, easy charge. You can't with 100% conviction say arm bar had an effect on the ball handler but the charge is a no brainer.

This post makes no sense. The arm bar is an automatic foul in NCAAM just like the women’s game and high school. “100% conviction” doesn’t mean anything.

And before people hop in and say “Well, that’s not a call you want to make in the men’s game” I’ve seen multiple officials in this tournament apply 10-1-4 by the book. The “it didn’t affect the play” line of thinking is the entire reason that we have these automatic fouls now.

JRutledge Sun Mar 24, 2019 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1031524)
And before people hop in and say “Well, that’s not a call you want to make in the men’s game” I’ve seen multiple officials in this tournament apply 10-1-4 by the book. The “it didn’t affect the play” line of thinking is the entire reason that we have these automatic fouls now.

That is not a call you make at any level IMO. The arm was not extended and this was not the typical "arm bar" that is allowed in Men's basketball either. Arm-Bars are allowed in the post in the back of the ball handler with limited pressure in a specific "post area." His arm is right by his body. There is going to be some contact with an arm every now and then. I do not see this specific play as him using it unnecessarily or unnaturally to cause contact. The ball handler is going where he wants to and never did anything to avoid the defender he charged into.

Peace


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