LSU v. Florida Video Request - Continuous Motion
 

3:45 of 2nd half in SEC tournament today. Florida's shooter makes a three point shot as his teammate is being fouled off ball. Crew gets together and counts the basket as they judged continuous motion had started. Of course Karl Ravich and Jimmy Dykes were convinced it was incorrect since the ball had not been released yet.

That foul occurred well before shooting motion. A1 had just caught the ball when the illegal contact first started. He then started to bring the ball up, brought it back down, then restarted his shooting motion.

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I have only seen one replay of this shot. My impression, from that one view, was that the foul occurred well before the shooting motion started. The issue for LSU was that after this happened the coach got T'ed up, which when everything was said and done meant the game went from a 3 point LSU lead to a 3 point Florida lead.

I am a bit shocked this isn't considered a reviewable situation under NCAA replay rules.


EDIT: I just found another view of this. It can be argued that the contact occurred before the shooter ever even had the ball, and the foul certainly was before the try started.

This play is really not that close and the crew should have been able to figure it out. It doesn't help that the whistle only comes when the screener is already on his ass. Bad miss.

Yeah, the problem was caused by waiting so long to blow the whistle.

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That is one of the problems that comes from having a really patient whistle on everything....late enough that everyone has already seen what happened. You can't use the timing of the whistle to determine the point it occurred relative to anything (such as a shot).

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Peace

Foul Or Whistle ???
 

What's used for the determination of continuous motion, the actual foul, or the whistle for the foul?

(For both NFHS and NCAA.)

The whistle. Since the whistle occurred after the shooting motion started, the foul is considered during continuous motion.

If this it happens near the end of the game or at the end of a shot clock, monitor review would use the time of illegal contact to set the game clock, but you can't change the the determination of continuous motion even with replay showing the illegal contact started before the act of shooting.

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That may be how it often works out in practice when two different officials are combining information, but the rule is the foul itself, not the whistle that determines continuous motion.

I haven't looked it up myself yet. I agree with you, but someone I trust said it goes by the whistle and that it is an NCAA quirk in the rules.

I agree. This was a situation where a quirk in the rules and a late whistle by the official changed the entire flow of the game.

To me the foul is clearly before the shooter begins the act of shooting. In fact to me the foul actually occurs simultaneous with the catch of the ball by the shooter behind his left shoulder. The shooter then goes into what would have been the start of the shooting motion before he has to stop and restart that motion due to his team mate flying across in front of him.

The other thing I'm not sure about was the two whistles. Did the same official blow the whistle twice, or were there two late whistles on the play, possible one from the lead after seeing the contact before the center makes the call late.

To me this is something that should be reviewable to make sure the call is correct without consideration to the time left in the game.

This is not consistent within the NFHS rules (unless they clarified from the book I'm looking at which isn't the current book), due to inconsistency within the NFHS rules.


There are two parts to the rule about a dead ball that are important.

Dead ball: The ball becomes dead

Article 5 : An officials whistle is blown (see exception a)

Article 7: A foul, other than a player or team control foul occurs. (exceptions a,b,c)

Exceptions: A: when a try or tap for goal is in FLIGHT.

Exceptions: B: (article 7) occurs by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting), the trying motion must be continuous .......


To me these are inconsistent with each other. Also, the key word is the trying motion by be continuous. In this case, the trying motion wasn't a continuous motion as he stopped the motion to let his team mate fly by after he was fouled.

Fundamentals ...
 

I'm not disagreeing. If this play had been in a HS game, not a college game, there is no way that 3 should have counted. We would have either a ball out of bounds, a 1-1 or 2 shots (depending on foul situation) with the score still 63-60.

If the NCAA rule is the same, and I suspect it is. This is not a made 3 point basket because the foul occurred before the shooter was in his shooting motion. Bad miss by the officials.

The rules on continuous motion are the same at the NCAA level and NF level. I would have made the very same decision at either level. The issue is if they were in the motion when the foul took place. And they have one shot to make that call. I think that was a tough decision either way. I think there is a reasonable debate to make either way. Often the calling official is not the one that sees the motion of the shooter in this situation with clarity.

Peace

Primary ...
 

Agree. One official is watching the shooter, the other is watching the off ball contact. It's not too much of a stretch to think that one official may not see the other official's foul, and then have to get together and have problems deciding if the off ball foul was before or during the continuous motion of the shooter.

In many instances I can agree with not seeing the foul and the shot, however the way this particular play ended up I find it hard to understand why the officials could in any way conclude the foul happened while the shooter was in his continuous motion. The shooter had to stop his motion and restart to let the fouled player fly by. That might be the first clue to an official even if they didn't see the contact.

The fact the call was so late on the foul is also very questionable. The official doesn't even start to react to the foul until the Florida player who was fouled has his hands on the floor to break his fall. The whistle is even later.

This is a play the NCAA needs to allow to be reviewed no mater what point of the game the situation occurs.

I saw this play and wanted to see what you guys thought about the timing of it all. I had almost this exact play this year, except the foul was definitely during the continuous motion. I didn't actually call it. I was Lead and my partner at Trail called the foul on the defense as an offensive player was shooting a three pointer. He came to me before he reported anything to make sure he should count the basket, which we did. The coach from the defensive team could not understand how a basket could count since the foul happened before the shot was released.

I've had similar situations, but normally what I've seen is the ball in flight and the foul is on the defense trying to get position for a rebound. They don't understand why the offense gets credit for the basket and gets the ball. Had to eject a hothead from a game over this last season during wRECk ball. He pulled the rule book out to try showing us the rule on the floor while were administering his first T for telling us (and everyone in the gym) how blanking great we were doing. The funniest part is, the player is also a MS coach in the area and I had his team later in the week. He actually apologized and said we were right on the call, but still didn't think he should have been tossed.

What a wild ride. :D

Nearly the identical play from the NCAAW Case book:

A.R. 22. A1 sets a legal screen for teammate A2, who has the ball. B1, in trying
to defend the shot, pushes through the screen of A1. When the illegal contact
occurs, A2 has not started her trying motion, but when the official blows the
whistle A2’s trying motion has started. She continues her trying motion and the
ball enters the basket.
RULING: The goal by A2 is scored because when the whistle sounded,
A2 was in the act of shooting and continuous motion applies. If Team
A is not in the bonus, Team A will be awarded the ball for a throw-in
at the out of bounds spot nearest to where the foul occurred. If Team
A is in the bonus, A1 will be awarded two free throws.
Note: The only reference in the rules book to when a "foul occurs"
is when the game clock reads zeroes at the end of a period and the
officials are using a courtside monitor to determine whether the
illegal contact (foul) occurred before the reading of zeroes on the
game clock. Otherwise, the whistle normally blows so close to when
the foul occurs that there is not enough of a separation to determine
a difference. By rule, the whistle is sounded when a foul occurs and
the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds, unless at the time
the whistle is sounded a try is in flight or continuous motion applies.
(Rule 2-7.2, 6-5.1.f, 6-6.1, 6-6.2 and 11-3.1.a.3)

High School ...
 

Thanks bob jenkins. Nice citation.

This above is true for NCAA (as was the original post).

Would the ruling be different for NFHS?

NFHS BASKETBALL RULES FUNDAMENTALS
16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

The foul away from the ball was SO MUCH earlier than the user started his shot. I don't think it's even close.

It wasn't close, but the whistle was late, and continuous motion had definitely begun by the time the whistle blew.

My source is the husband of a D1 Women's coach (whose team made the NCAA-W's tourney, btw), so maybe that was his citation also. I'll look up the Men's side after my staff meeting.

I just scoured the Men's rule and case books and I cannot find any citation that states the whistle, not the foul itself, is used to determine if continuous motion is in effect.

Flip Side ...
 

Is there a rule, or a caseplay, that that states that the foul is used to determine if continuous motion is in effect, without ever mentioning the whistle.

Without a rule/case citation I'm not sure here. Are timeouts granted when they are requested or when the whistle is blown?

Timeout, Dead Ball, Whistle ...
 

To answer deecee's specific question, I believe that the timeout is granted when the official "signals" (whistle and open hand) the timeout.

In a more general sense, the clock stopping, and the ball becoming dead, may not be at the same exact time in many circumstances, and may not be at the same time as the whistle.

5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official:
ART. 1 Signals:
a. A foul.
d. A time-out.
ART. 3 Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual
request for a time-out …

6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 4 A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).
ART. 7 A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see
exceptions a, b and c below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or
until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try
or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred,
provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying
motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in
the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is
completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may
include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when
throwing the ball at his/her basket.

NFHS Basketball Rules Fundamentals
16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

Yes, but with an off-ball play, the official has to go by when the whistle is blown to some extent.

For me, this is very close. I see why the call was made that way, but I could see if they decided the foul took place before the shot was attempted.

Peace

Eyes And Ears ...
 

Agree. If at least one official doesn't see both the off ball foul and the act of shooting, then the officials would have to utilize their ears instead of their eyes.

I don't see this as very close. By the time he starts to shoot the screener was on his rear sliding by the shooter. That implies the foul has already occurred.

OK. We all have an opinion.

Peace

But couldn't the calling official come in and say, I had a really late whistle on that so if it was close, we should rule that the foul happened first?
In baseball/softball on a timing play the field umpire will yell tag to help the plate umpire no whether to count the run. If for some reason that was delayed or early, I'd expect that information to be offered, and I can think of no reason that wouldn't be the case here.

Baseball/Softball are totally different than basketball. And you would determine where what came first by being in the position to see a tag and if it came before a run counted. There is no whistle or line of demarcation.

Peace

First, it's a "time play," not a "timing play." Second, that "yelling" bit is no longer taught at higher levels -- and hasn't been for more-than-a-few-years.

Fair enough for baseball; not so for softball.