NCAAM - Inbound steal = Primary or secondary defender?
 

I have seen this play and am curious as to what people think. Try to visualize.

B1 is inbounding the ball to B2 along the endline having to go the length of the court. B2 is about 15 feet from the endline. A2 is about 10 feet from B2 on the far side and B1 cannot see A2. As B1 releases the inbound pass, A2 sneakily runs towards B2, steps around B2, and intercepts the inbounds pass. B1, having seen the interception, steps inbounds, and stands, with feet on ground, in the Restricted Area (RA). A2 takes a dribble and runs over B1.

Is B1 considered to be a primary or secondary defender? What do you think? Is there an NCAAM rule/case play for this situation?

primary/secondary only have implications in the RA for block/charge only. Also any outnumbered fast break (offense outnumbers defense) all defenders are secondary. finally if a primary defender was never established then the first player to apply defense would be considered primary, excluding the above exception for a fast break.

Hopefully someone provides a citation or two to prove me wrong or right. I'm about 50/50 on the last sentence.

Yes, I am aware of all the RA stuff. I am mostly looking for a citation for the OP.

Outnumbered fast-break is either offense greater than defense or defense greater than offense.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

This is an outnumbered fast break. Both B1 and B2 are secondary defenders. Neither can establish LGP in the RA.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion from the AP? Can't tell if its outnumbered and/or the defender was in the RA.

He only mentions 3 players, so I am assuming they are the only three players involved. Unless definitions have changed, 3 is an odd number. Also, since he is asking about primary/secondary defenders, the logical inference is that the play involves the RA, otherwise, those terms are irrelevant.

To avoid a rabbit hole regarding the RA, I have added details to the OP. Not sure I would call this a fast break nor do I feel that this is an outnumbering situation. Once A2 gets the ball, there is no immediate defender between A2 and the basket. B1 steps inbounds and becomes a defender. Does B1 become a primary or secondary defender?

Lets say only A2 and B1 are involved and all other players are "behind" them on the other half of the court. What do you have?

If a primary defender has not been established how can you have a secondary defender? The only way is an uneven fast break.

Rule 4 Section 36. Secondary Defender

Art. 1. A secondary defender is a teammate who has helped a primary defender after that player has been beaten by an opponent because he failed to establish or maintain a guarding position. A defensive player is beaten when the offensive player’s head and shoulders get past the defender.
Art. 2. A secondary defender is a teammate who double teams a low post player.
Art. 3. After an offensive rebound, there are no secondary defenders when the rebounder makes an immediate move to the basket.
Art. 4. In an outnumbering fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a secondary defender. This designation as a secondary defender shall not prevent the defender from establishing legal guarding position on an offensive player and defending that player all the way to the basket including in the Restricted Area Arc.

There are no case plays that address the OP's scenario. Therefore, we have to go with the rule book definitions of a secondary defender. Does the defender in this situation meet any of the definitions from Rule 4-36?

This is one problem with the forum, non one will just answer a simple question. They usually just provide more questions and in most cases, an answer can be garnered, but not in this case. That is why I asked for an opinion (when I said "what do you think?)

I am familiar with the rules and feel that this play may not have a specific rule to apply to it.

"Lets say only A2 and B1 are involved and all other players are "behind" them on the other half of the court. What do you have?" - In this case (not mine) I presume that B1 is inbounds and even able to guard A2. I would call him a primary defender when A2 gets the ball. But your question is not my case.

If a primary defender has not been established how can you have a secondary defender? The only way is an uneven fast break. - Maybe you can't, however you are not answering the question. Maybe another question regards when and how a primary defender is defined. Can a primary defender ever be out of bounds? In this play are there neither primary nor secondary defenders? Is that ever possible once an offense has been established?



In the OP, what would you rule and why? If you think B1 is a primary defender in the RA, then you have an offensive foul. If you think B1 is a secondary defender in the RA, then you have a defensive foul. If you think that B1 is neither a primary nor a secondary defender, then you have found a loophole in the rules regarding the RA......and you would have to make some sort of call based on something. I guess you could no-call it but that will anger more people than not.

So you want someone to make up a case play to satisfy your question? :confused:

One poster has said secondary defender rules apply and one poster says secondary defender rules don't apply.

Unless somewhere here has direct access to JD Collins or Art Hyland, all you're going to get are opinions. I don't think an answer is going to magically fall out of the sky. You are only going to get variations of this: If you think B1 is a primary defender in the RA, then you have an offensive foul. If you think B1 is a secondary defender in the RA, then you have a defensive foul. If you think that B1 is neither a primary nor a secondary defender, then you have found a loophole in the rules regarding the RA......and you would have to make some sort of call based on something.

I thought the answer revealed itself when you look at the definitions. I was wrong in the assumption that outnumbered only applied to more offense but the premise is the same.

I would say this defender is the primary defender with the assumption that it was just these 2 players on offense. Otherwise he *could* be secondary, but depends on some facts not presented.

You could have also provided what you *thought* it was.

Surely there "must" be interps / videos / comments at a clinic when the rule was first put in place ... that deal with a fast break that turns into one offense and one defense.

I'd apply that ruling.

Becky you sly dog....
 

This play has been sent to a small college staff to be answered survey monkey. The defender is primary, the RA only applies to a "secondary" defender. It isn't a fast break situation so you can throw all of that out the door. The play is a charge....

Thanks for response.

I would like to know at what point they thought B1 became a primary defender...or even a defender. When the ball was stolen, B1 was out of bounds. Was he a primary defender, or defender at all, while out of bounds? Or did he become that after stepping inbounds? Whateves...I guess that is a different post.

Dude, as an official you need to know when legal guarding position is established. That marks the beginning of "defending". You are letting primary/secondary confuse you.

I disagree. A player can be defending and/or guarding without having legal guarding position. It happens all the time, even hundreds of times per game.

I asked 25 NCAA-M D1 officials that I know about this play. These officials get anywhere from 10-60 D1 games a year and work in conferences ranging from the OVC and WAC on the lower end, and the PAC12 and Big Ten on the high end, and all kinds of mid-major conferences in between. 22 of them said this is an outnumbered break, and the defender is a secondary defender. 3 of them, including the two newest officials to get D1 games, were on the opposite side. Many of the longer serving D1 officials mentioned that there were either rulings or discussions at the preseason NCAA meetings the year the RA went into effect where they were informed that this type of play is to be ruled an outnumbered break and secondary defender. During a brief inspection of the NCAA-M central hub, I did not find an archive of rulings or presentations that went back to the year the RA was added to the rule set. I put very little effort into looking so it is probably there if anyone wants to actually do the work to find it.

So, as I quoted the originator of this thread earlier: Other than Hyland or Collins, the closest we'll get to a definitive answer is if someone asks Al Battista.

What a tangled mess this rule is. So suppose that in this play B1 remains out of bounds and B2 manages to cause a charge that's in the RA. If I've read this thread right, that's a charge because this is not an outnumbered fast break. But if B1 steps in just before the contact from A1 we have a block?

If B2 established legal guarding position outside of the RA, then B2 can take a charge inside of the RA if he maintained LGP the entire time.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

If B1 remains out of bounds and does not return, we have a different issue, out of bounds of his own volition. Normally, that gets called against an offensive player who uses the out-of-bounds area to evade a defender, but if a defender uses out-of-bounds to bend the rules to allow his teammate to draw a charge, I would punish the defender for being intentionally OOB, and call that instead of the apparent foul.

Wow, thank you. I appreciate the legwork a great deal.