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-   -   Out of bounds “5” count (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104283-out-bounds-5-count.html)

MattReferee Fri Jan 11, 2019 01:08am

Out of bounds “5” count
 
So I attended a game tonight “endline seated 10’ away’and after a made basketball 4th quarter under 2mins of a close game the team that was inbounding was being pressed by defense and the offense player was calling out a play while the ball was at HIS disposal “by his feet” and the referee yelled at player to pick up ball “at” time the referee had NOT started his “5” second count while telling player this information TICK/TOCK🤷*♂️My question is at the point ball was at inbounders disposal shouldn’t a count have started ? My thoughts player is delaying throw in to break press? Or do you give delay of game warning? Or just wait till player bends down to pick up ball?
I’m just asking for input to situation tonight
Please help

JRutledge Fri Jan 11, 2019 01:53am

When the ball is at his/her disposal, the covering official should start a count. It is really that simple. The ball in their hand is not required. And I would be even more strict on with less time on the clock. A team gets an advantage if you just let them run the clock without having to do anything.

Peace

BillyMac Fri Jan 11, 2019 09:35am

We're What'cha Call Experts ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028581)
When the ball is at his/her disposal, the covering official should start a count. It is really that simple. The ball in their hand is not required ... A team gets an advantage if you just let them run the clock without having to do anything.

Agree 100% with JRutledge.

4-4-7 A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throwin
count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at
the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

7-6-2 The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player
of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a
pass directly into the court … within five seconds after the
throw-in begins.

When to start the count (original post)?

NFHS definitions and rules don't give us much literary help, definitions of disposal and available may be considered judgment calls based on officials expertise, experience, and common sense, logical knowledge of the game, in other words, “I know it when I see it” (Potter Stewart, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States , Jacobellis v. Ohio, 1964).

Strictly based on NFHS definitions and rules:

When does one start the count? When it's at the disposal (available) of the player.

When is it at the disposal (available) of the player? When the official starts the count.

One will occasionally hear the answers to these questions in regard to live ball/dead ball, timeout, or personal/technical foul situations immediately after a made basket.

That's circular logic, not very helpful to one who doesn't know what a basketball game is, which is why we use judgment and get paid the big bucks.

One doesn't have to go around the block many times, or attend a lot of rodeos, to know when the ball is available, at the disposal, or when to start counting.

deecee Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:37am

Officials that coach drive/drove me nuts. We can help communicate with players to talk them out of fouls/violations but I found nothing gets coaches and players moving like a visible count.

All this official is doing is opening themselves up to be reamed at by the opposing coach which could put them in a position for a T. Not good.

BillyMac Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:55am

Count Von Count ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1028599)
... I found nothing gets coaches and players moving like a visible count.

They're certainly watching.

I hear it all the time from coaches, "He's counting".

Usually with closely guarded counts, but sometimes on throwins.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.o...=0&w=230&h=167

ilyazhito Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:02pm

A rule of thumb for me is when the ball is on the floor within reach of a player. At that point, I start counting. If the ball is lying still on the floor after a goal,and no one moves to pick it up, I also start a count. I also start a count if the team entitled to the ball delays after a timeout.

johnny d Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028603)
If the ball is lying still on the floor after a goal,and no one moves to pick it up, I also start a count. I also start a count if the team entitled to the ball delays after a timeout.

I am sure these, especially the last one, are winning moves for you. :rolleyes:

BillyMac Fri Jan 11, 2019 01:00pm

I'm Not Going To Wait Forever ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028603)
A rule of thumb for me is when the ball is on the floor within reach of a player. At that point, I start counting. If the ball is lying still on the floor after a goal,and no one moves to pick it up,

I also start a count. I also start a count if the team entitled to the ball delays after a timeout.

Sounds like a plan.

After a timeout, I'll be sure to sound my whistle extremely loud and long, make an exaggerated move to put the ball on the floor, preventing it from rolling away, take an exaggerated step back, and make an exaggerated counting motion, maybe a little slower than my normal count. If I get to five, I'll call the violation, that's the rule. Bottom line, I'm not in a rush to call a violation, but I want everybody to know that I'm not going to wait forever.

I need to clarify something. Is it true that this procedure can be used for any delayed throwin situation, not just one after a timeout, or intermission?

4-38: The resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the
ball in play when a throw-in team does not make a thrower available or
following a time-out or intermission (unless either team is not on the court
to start the second half) as in 7-5-1 and 8-1-2. The procedure results in a
violation instead of a technical foul for initial delay in specific situations.


Note the word "or".

bob jenkins Fri Jan 11, 2019 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028606)

Note the word "or".

the "or" is clear and correct.

BillyMac Fri Jan 11, 2019 02:29pm

Delayed Free throw ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1028610)
... the "or" is clear and correct.

Thanks.

Again to clarify, how about in a delayed free throw situation (defenders ready)?

After a time out, or intermission, in a delayed free throw situation (defenders ready), put the ball on the floor and start counting ten?

Any other (not after a time out, or intermission) delayed free throw situation (defenders ready), charge a immediate technical foul?

BillyMac Fri Jan 11, 2019 02:32pm

And Eight Second Violations ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028600)

The Count only calls four second violations. Transylvanian rules.

UNIgiantslayers Fri Jan 11, 2019 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 1028605)
I am sure these, especially the last one, are winning moves for you. :rolleyes:

These are all fine, in my opinion.

BigCat Fri Jan 11, 2019 04:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1028618)
These are all fine, in my opinion.

I’d have to see the first two. Ill start a count if there just fiddling around. As to the third point...get the team out of the huddle. Pick your battles...and there will be battles. Don’t fight over a TO. Putting the ball on the floor or counting before they get to spot after a TO guarantees a fight. Just get to the huddle and get them out.

BillyMac Sat Jan 12, 2019 01:36pm

Please Confirm ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028615)
... to clarify, how about in a delayed free throw situation (defenders ready)?

After a time out, or intermission, in a delayed free throw situation (defenders ready), put the ball on the floor and start counting ten?

Any other (not after a time out, or intermission) delayed free throw situation (defenders ready), charge a immediate technical foul?

I'm 99% sure that I'm correct, but can an esteemed Forum member please confirm?

bob jenkins Sat Jan 12, 2019 08:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028651)
I'm 99% sure that I'm correct, but can an esteemed Forum member please confirm?

Check your case book. It's there. (or was in 2016-17, the version I have handy)


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