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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 09:02am
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yes.
Wow. Never seen it, never will. That's crazy. So explain what the point of lgp even is? That is simply not the way the game is called.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 09:07am
LRZ LRZ is offline
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thedewed, you really ought to read (or re-read) the definitions in Rule 4 about guarding and arms and hands, and the contact section of Rule 10. Please note this line, which says nothing about LGP being a prerequisite: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

Maybe you should talk this over with some experienced officials you respect.

Last edited by LRZ; Wed Dec 19, 2018 at 09:09am.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 09:09am
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The player with the arm out is trying to hold space they are not entitled to with their arm. So if the dribbler goes through their arm, AND if the contact has a significant and immediate impact on the offensive player then you can call a foul.

The player standing still backward is entitled to the spot they are holding and are protected from being run into and run over just because of where they choose to stand.

The debate here if you wanted to have one is whether or not a player on the ground can occupy all that space and have it called their's. Back turned, on one leg, sitting, standings, lying down. Players still need and are entitled to a space of their own free from opposing teams running roughshod into/through them.

If a player is not in LGP position to help on the ball carrier, so the ball carrier chooses to jump into their shoulder or side that does not mean that the stationary defender (who has the offense playing pin ball) should or will get a foul called against them.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 09:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
Wow. Never seen it, never will. That's crazy. So explain what the point of lgp even is? That is simply not the way the game is called.
LGP grants the defense extra privileges in addition to the right to a spot on the floor (provided he gets there first and legally). Namely, LGP allows the defender to move laterally and backwards to maintain LGP.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 09:28am
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No official in their right mind is going to not call a block on a player in front of the basket with his back to the basket If a driver makes contact with him. Good luck with that.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 09:34am
LRZ LRZ is offline
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I repeat my advice: Talk this over with some experienced officials you respect.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 10:07am
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[QUOTE=thedewed;1027428] So explain what the point of lgp even is? /quote]

To allow additional movement by the defender that would otherwise be illegal.

Quote:
That is simply not the way the game is called.
As a practical matter, that's mainly true -- because very few defenders actually are standing still, or moving in the same path and direction as the offensive player. But, if you pay attention, you will see collisions between payers (whether the offensive player has the ball or not) that are properly judged to be "nothing"
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 11:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
No official in their right mind is going to not call a block on a player in front of the basket with his back to the basket If a driver makes contact with him. Good luck with that.

B is in a zone defense. A1 catches deep in the corner and squares up to shoot a 3. B1, on the block, turns his back to A1 to prepare for a rebound. A1 puts the ball on the floor and drives baseline. B1 is totally stationary. A1 runs right up his back. You call a block on B1 for this?
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
No official in their right mind is going to not call a block on a player in front of the basket with his back to the basket If a driver makes contact with him. Good luck with that.
Officials that understand the rules will not call that a block. Those that make up their own rules might. Quit making it harder on others by making up your own stuff.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
B is in a zone defense. A1 catches deep in the corner and squares up to shoot a 3. B1, on the block, turns his back to A1 to prepare for a rebound. A1 puts the ball on the floor and drives baseline. B1 is totally stationary. A1 runs right up his back. You call a block on B1 for this?
exactly. what have you got, nothing? certainly not a charge. if a defender isn't ball-aware enough to turn and square up, and is in the route of the driver, and there is contact, it's a block.

I suppose if the context isn't a legit bball play, i.e. the dribbler is simply seeking out an unwary defender, rather than making a legit play on the basket, I'd look at it differently, but if a dribbler is making a basketball move and comes in contact with a defensive player, if the defensive player isn't in LGP, if there is enough contact for a foul, the foul is on the defense.

I was officiating games with NBA players over 20 years ago and had them eating out of my hand, via common sense. I don't need to talk to anyone. If anyone can come up with a video of a D1 official calling a charge on a dribbler driving into a defensive player at the basket with his back to him, put it up. It won't happen.

I'm talking about men's basketball here...if it's a non-basketball play, that's different. Same with player on the floor. If a dribbler takes a path intentionally to run over a player on the floor, and it's obvious he's simply trying to get a call from a naive official, I wouldn't make that call. Use common sense.

I've never seen either of these things happen or get called the way you all describe it, ever, at least in D1 or pro.

You all have younger officials on here looking for actual guidance as they progress, I'd be careful filling their heads with inappropriate concepts. The answer here in legit bball plays is, was the defensive player in legal guarding position. If not, it certainly isn't a charge, and is either a no-call or a block.

some of you are reading too much into the 'entitled to a position on the floor' language in the books, that doesn't overrule the need for LGP. If you called a charge in a game where a driver direct to the basket collided with a defensive player that was looking for the rebound and had his back to the drive, you would get laughed out of the gym, if it was men's basketball.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 01:02pm
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Charge ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
B is in a zone defense. A1 catches deep in the corner and squares up to shoot a 3. B1, on the block, turns his back to A1 to prepare for a rebound. A1 puts the ball on the floor and drives baseline. B1 is totally stationary. A1 runs right up his back.
Nice realistic (especially if B1 is a secondary defender) scenario. Player control foul on A1, who prevents B1 from having any ability to get a rebound.

4-23-1: Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player
gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who
extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not
considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 19, 2018 at 01:15pm.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 01:03pm
CJP CJP is offline
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A player control foul is simply a "common foul" by a player who is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter. A common foul is a personal foul which is neither flagrant nor intentional nor committed against a player trying or tapping for a field goal nor part of a double, simultaneous or multiple foul. These are essentially word for word definitions out of the rule book. Neither mention LGP.

Edit:

The definition of a personal foul does not mention LGP either.

Last edited by CJP; Wed Dec 19, 2018 at 01:07pm.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 01:09pm
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LGP position is not the requirement for calling fouls on the offense. If it was rebounding fouls, holding fouls, illegal screens, pushing fouls would not exist.

If you don't want to call a charge because the the defense is not in LGP and taking one in the chest I can see that. However the options are not just no call or call a block.

While both those exist there are a number of other fouls that are not charges that may apply to a player running into another player who is in their cylinder. Simply from the stand point of reducing rough play you would likely be able to justify any number of them.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 01:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
exactly. what have you got, nothing? certainly not a charge. if a defender isn't ball-aware enough to turn and square up, and is in the route of the driver, and there is contact, it's a block.

I suppose if the context isn't a legit bball play, i.e. the dribbler is simply seeking out an unwary defender, rather than making a legit play on the basket, I'd look at it differently, but if a dribbler is making a basketball move and comes in contact with a defensive player, if the defensive player isn't in LGP, if there is enough contact for a foul, the foul is on the defense.

I was officiating games with NBA players over 20 years ago and had them eating out of my hand, via common sense. I don't need to talk to anyone. If anyone can come up with a video of a D1 official calling a charge on a dribbler driving into a defensive player at the basket with his back to him, put it up. It won't happen.

I'm talking about men's basketball here...if it's a non-basketball play, that's different. Same with player on the floor. If a dribbler takes a path intentionally to run over a player on the floor, and it's obvious he's simply trying to get a call from a naive official, I wouldn't make that call. Use common sense.

I've never seen either of these things happen or get called the way you all describe it, ever, at least in D1 or pro.

You all have younger officials on here looking for actual guidance as they progress, I'd be careful filling their heads with inappropriate concepts. The answer here in legit bball plays is, was the defensive player in legal guarding position. If not, it certainly isn't a charge, and is either a no-call or a block.

some of you are reading too much into the 'entitled to a position on the floor' language in the books, that doesn't overrule the need for LGP. If you called a charge in a game where a driver direct to the basket collided with a defensive player that was looking for the rebound and had his back to the drive, you would get laughed out of the gym, if it was men's basketball.
You're half right. The proper call cannot be a charge. It would be a pushing foul on the offense.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 19, 2018, 01:14pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
boy I don't know. It's a pretty well accepted principle of the game that if you are on defense, and a ball possessor contacts you, you better be in LGP or you risk a foul call. You've got to be aware of where the ball is and square up. If you've got your back to the ball and get run into, it's on you, is the way I've always understood it. And that works.
Officials who think a player has to be "set" to take a charge would probably agree with you. It seems that there is still officials who think that this is a "principle" of the game as well.
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