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just another ref Fri Dec 14, 2018 02:02am

I can't believe......
 
they didn't know this. A1 is doubled in the post and looks to pass back out. A2, in his attempt to get open backs up and steps on the sideline. From here, he jumps in the air, receives a pass from A1 and returns to the floor inbounds.

Just to make sure everybody here knows, is this a violation or not?

BillyMac Fri Dec 14, 2018 07:16am

Who Didn't Know This ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1027204)
A1 is doubled in the post and looks to pass back out. A2, in his attempt to get open backs up and steps on the sideline. From here, he jumps in the air, receives a pass from A1 and returns to the floor inbounds.

Violation.

You are where you are until you get where you're going.

Pantherdreams Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:27am

If you judge the player was out of bounds when they jumped they are out of bounds until they land inbounds.


Jumping is however an inexact activity performed with a wide variety of bio mechanic diversity. If at least part of a foot or one entire foot was inbounds when the jump occured you could probably make a convincing argument based on their jumping mechanics that by the time their entire body left the floor the parts leaving the floor had regained inbounds status. Ie. If my heel is out of bounds and I jump in order to jump i am likely extending my foot from heel off the ground first to toes off the ground last to activate the appropriate muscles. Meaning, that if only my toes were on the floor at one point in the jumping process I had contact with the floor inbounds only with my foot/feet before leaving the ground. OR which foot leaves contact with the floor last etc.

That is convoluted though, so refer back to intial part of repsonse. If you judge they were out of bounds when they left the floor they are out of bounds until they return to the floor.

JRutledge Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:36am

There are many things officials do not know, even the most obvious things to us. I know, when I teach officials in my class the things that even experienced officials have to be taught is numerous. The rules can be hard to completely grasp if you are not familiar with certain situations.

Peace

ChuckS Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1027209)
There are many things officials do not know, even the most obvious things to us.

Last year I called a kicked ball on team A (offense) as T, point to the throw-in spot for Team B, and my partner gives me that look. He tells me that I am wrong, it is Team A ball, only kicked ball violations on the defense are penalized!!:eek:

BillyMac Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:11pm

They've Got An Awful Lot Of Coffee In Brazil (Frank Sinatra, 1946)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1027209)
... the things that even experienced officials have to be taught is numerous.

In my new life as a subvarsity official, a few nights ago my young partner called a three second violation and administered the throwin from the closest spot to the violation rather than the point of interruption on the other side of the lane (where the ball was). As old trail, new lead, this allowed me to stay put rather than rotate across the court.

I complimented him at halftime on the administration of the throwin, but he admitted that he really didn't know the rule, rather he didn't want to force me to rotate (he works a lot of recreation league games with modified mechanics). I was pretty sure that he actually had done it correctly, but he had me questioning myself, so I had to confirm it by looking it up when I got home.

There are an awful lot rules in basketball. Lots to remember. Lots to forget.

BillyMac Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:29pm

Kickball, Sixth Grade, Every Day After Lunch, I'm Whatchacall A Rules Expert ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckS (Post 1027211)
... only kicked ball violations on the defense are penalized!!

Maybe in practice, but not in theory. Any intentional kick is a violation, the way that James Naismith and God intended. A defensive player often kicks the ball intentionally as a defensive move to stop a pass (picture guards at the front of a zone defense doing jumping jacks). One has to ask themselves why would an offensive player intentionally kick a ball when it would seldom be a good offensive move (there are often more efficient ways of moving the ball from one location to another). A general rule of thumb (utilized incorrectly by ChuckS's partner) is that many, though certainly not all, defensive kicks are intentional, and thus, violations; and that many, though certainly not all, offensive kicks are unintentional, and play on.

Back in ancient times, when I was working boys high school recreation, I had a ball handler lose the handle on the ball as he was on a fast break with a teammate ahead of him wide open. The ball handler kicked the loose ball from the floor to his teammate for a wide open layup. I called the violation and the coach complained that it wasn't a defensive kick. I replied that I believed that it was kicked intentionally. I later discovered that the ball handler was an All State soccer player.

Nevadaref Sat Dec 15, 2018 03:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1027204)
they didn't know this. A1 is doubled in the post and looks to pass back out. A2, in his attempt to get open backs up and steps on the sideline. From here, he jumps in the air, receives a pass from A1 and returns to the floor inbounds.

Just to make sure everybody here knows, is this a violation or not?

To answer correctly, I would need to know precisely how A2 jumped. If he had one foot inbounds and one foot out of bounds, which foot left the floor last when he jumped or did his feet leave simultaneously?

just another ref Sat Dec 15, 2018 03:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1027221)
To answer correctly, I would need to know precisely how A2 jumped. If he had one foot inbounds and one foot out of bounds, which foot left the floor last when he jumped or did his feet leave simultaneously?


He had both feet on the line. I talked to one of the assistants last night about the play and asked what they saw. He started to diagram the play. "We were running..." Yeah, yeah, get to the important part. :) The guy went on to say "He was definitely in when he came back down." I explained that this doesn't matter, that where he left from was the important part. We agreed that he was on the line but I told him that the player could have stepped back in before he jumped and I could have missed it. He took this and ran with it. "Yeah, that's what he did."

I'm satisfied... that I'll never know the truth.


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