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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2018, 08:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmbu View Post
I am asking as the Athletic Director who hired the official score keeper. She came to me after the game asking why an official would ask.

I am not trying to stir anything up. I just wanted to know if this is a common practice that I need fo be aware of.
It might not be common practice, but I will and have asked questions about what is a stat or two that might explain the first half or give us some idea as to what might happen in the second half. There might be a reason they are asking because the coach might have made a big deal out of it. So they want to know so they are aware of what the coach is talking about. Honestly, if I ask those questions, I do not care why others might not care. I am asking for myself.

A few weeks ago I asked in a college game for what one of the teams shot in the first half. I was opposite the table and the stat guy was right next to me, so I asked him what was the percentage. It helped me figure out that that was not going to continue and we would have a much closer game in the second half. The team that shot the high percentage ended up losing. No one was in foul trouble, but I might have asked if it was a factor in the game. Any information a crew can have can help them tell figure out what is happening or what might happen.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2018, 11:52pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Leads to increased concentration and certainty on my part.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'll buy that. But for me I think that means I have a tendency to blow less whistles on anyone late in a close game, not just impact players. ("LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE THE GAME!!") Put me in the camp of never asking who has three or four fouls, but quite often we know anyway, whether we like it or not.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2018, 07:50am
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I just like to know so we can properly administer the fifth foul instead of having the table buzz us back. Plus we can sometimes figure out the offense and better judge any contact if we know who they might be "attacking."
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2018, 01:42pm
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A Final Four official said this to me at camp this year and it resonated with me because I used to hate when guys would mention that:
If you get a cheap 3rd foul in the first half or a cheap 4th/5th in the second half on the best player on that team, rather than having the best player on the floor, youíve now got the 6th best player on the floor. Does that improve the flow and quality of the basketball? That has reshaped my philosophy, and while I will go get it if itís there, if itís marginal or 50/50 as to whether itís a foul or who the foul is on, Iím going to choose wisely in an effort to preserve the quality of basketball being played.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2018, 08:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
A Final Four official said this to me at camp this year and it resonated with me because I used to hate when guys would mention that:
If you get a cheap 3rd foul in the first half or a cheap 4th/5th in the second half on the best player on that team, rather than having the best player on the floor, youíve now got the 6th best player on the floor. Does that improve the flow and quality of the basketball? That has reshaped my philosophy, and while I will go get it if itís there, if itís marginal or 50/50 as to whether itís a foul or who the foul is on, Iím going to choose wisely in an effort to preserve the quality of basketball being played.
Wow! Really? I find that rather absurd. The 6th best player is going to cause a big drop off in the flow and quality of the game? Virtually every game has stretches where play can get sloppy even with the best 5 players from each team in the game. Players 10-15 might certainly affect the flow and quality (but at that point the game has likely been decided) but the 6th player? I can't ever think of a time where I was even remotely concerned about the 6th player affecting the flow and quality of a game. I think sometimes we believe big-time officials are giving us nuggets when it's really only fools gold.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2018, 09:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmbu View Post
Is there any reason why an official would ask the official score keeper for foul counts on various players at halftime of a game. It would seem to me that this is not something an official would need or want to know at this point in the game.
I honestly never would "ask" for this information. If our "game awareness" is good, we can pick this up from the announcer, the scorekeeper indicating or relaying it to the head coach or other scorekeeper when we report, or in some facilities, it is posted on the scoreboard. And I will admit, I generally liked knowing who was in foul trouble; but I never asked.

Last edited by billyu2; Sun Dec 09, 2018 at 09:13pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2018, 10:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Wow! Really? I find that rather absurd. The 6th best player is going to cause a big drop off in the flow and quality of the game? Virtually every game has stretches where play can get sloppy even with the best 5 players from each team in the game. Players 10-15 might certainly affect the flow and quality (but at that point the game has likely been decided) but the 6th player? I can't ever think of a time where I was even remotely concerned about the 6th player affecting the flow and quality of a game. I think sometimes we believe big-time officials are giving us nuggets when it's really only fools gold.
In a college game? Maybe. Not sure how much high school ball you do but that can be a big difference, especially in the girls game. Itís also not always a perfect sixth player for best player substitute situation. If the best player is a post player, itís likely the next post in is probably going to be some big bruiser or a gangly kid who canít handle the ball. Maybe heís the 8th or 9th best player. Either way, the quality of the game, the flow, the fun aspect of officiating the game, etc all take a dip. Like I said, I was the same as most of you but itís not a bad thing to manage a game. I mean no offense in saying this, but Iím much more apt to take my cues from Terry Oglesby than billyu2 from the internet message board. Just my two cents on how my game has evolved a bit this year.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2018, 10:37pm
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I donít care about who the best players on the team are. The ďqualityĒ of basketball taking a dip is not something I get bent out of shape over and quite frankly think itís a myth that officials buy into for some reason. Not sure why we would let the fact that the best player is on the bench f*ck our game up.

I do, however, care about who the GFUs are, even if that includes one of the best players (if the best player is staring down an opponent every time he scores, I donít need him in the game).
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2018, 11:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
In a college game? Maybe. Not sure how much high school ball you do but that can be a big difference, especially in the girls game. Itís also not always a perfect sixth player for best player substitute situation. If the best player is a post player, itís likely the next post in is probably going to be some big bruiser or a gangly kid who canít handle the ball. Maybe heís the 8th or 9th best player. Either way, the quality of the game, the flow, the fun aspect of officiating the game, etc all take a dip. Like I said, I was the same as most of you but itís not a bad thing to manage a game. I mean no offense in saying this, but Iím much more apt to take my cues from Terry Oglesby than billyu2 from the internet message board. Just my two cents on how my game has evolved a bit this year.
No offense at all. I enjoy the discussion. Terry is expressing from his experience as a big time official. From my experience of 30+ HS I can say most often the better players are better not just by skill but by aggressiveness and physicality. When they inevitably get into foul trouble and have to sit, the game often has better flow and perhaps lesser quality. Either way, I donít consider that much of a priority. Iíve worked hard and had games with good flow and quality and games where there was no flow and little quality.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 10, 2018, 09:44am
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Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
No offense at all. I enjoy the discussion. Terry is expressing from his experience as a big time official. From my experience of 30+ HS I can say most often the better players are better not just by skill but by aggressiveness and physicality. When they inevitably get into foul trouble and have to sit, the game often has better flow and perhaps lesser quality. Either way, I donít consider that much of a priority. Iíve worked hard and had games with good flow and quality and games where there was no flow and little quality.
That's fair. I don't mean for it to sound like I'd protect anyone. I'm just going to make sure that it's an elephant if I'm going to get them for their 4th or 5th. I worked with a guy last week that called the 3rd on a kid when the offensive player ran into them and bounced off. Player was legal and was just bigger. Partner said he wished he had that one back. I'm just going to be absolutely sure it's a foul in that situation, no marginal stuff.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 10, 2018, 10:19am
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I ideally want no marginal fouls on any player at any point during the game. The time/score situation dictates the patience of my whistle and my processing of the play more so than who the player is. That is not to say that a foul in the 1Q isn't a foul at the end of the game, but it is to say that I need to have higher certainty in critical situations.

If it looks like I'm protecting a team's best player you can bet the other coach will let me know it, so I don't do that. There are some officials that basically stop one step short of teaching that protecting the best players is a good practice, and the foul needs to be a trainwreck to be called. To me that's a shameful way to officiate.

That said, if I have the opportunity to get a foul on a GFU that puts him on the bench and the film can support, I won't hesitate to grab it.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 10, 2018, 10:44am
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I see pros and cons. I like the idea of access to data that informs practice so getting info that helps me or my crew (my crew and I?) seems advantageous.

I've also been in games where I've seen/felt pressure to keep a kid in the game and started over analyzing situations or calls. Me problem not a philosophical concern.

Example from last years local regional playdown. My partner and I were working a quarter final game. (1 pair of officials for each quarters, regrouped for semi's, 3rd place, and final.) Late in a close quarter final game my partner has a conversation with the coach telling him to have his #8 be careful because she doesn't want to pick up her 5th on something reckless. He responded back that she only has 2. he goes to me and the the book next Time Out coach is correct. He had been giving her some leeway as he didn't want her fouling on on marginal calls.

Next game he gets in the semi her team is in and she gets 5 fouls in about 9 minutes of playing time.

Not criticizing either situation, just using it to illustrate the pros and cons. Having the right information can allow you to manage a game. Having misinformation or no information can allow you to mismanage. But having the information might actually impact how you see or deal with particular player or call. You have to be ok with that.

More knowledge or information always impacts perspective. You have to find your level of comfort with the amount of information and perspective you apply.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 10, 2018, 03:51pm
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Never mind the numbers, I don't think there is any question that when a player leaves the game and a player of lesser ability comes in it can have a significant impact on the game. BUT, when a player gets into foul trouble it is the player who should be "more careful," not the official.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 10, 2018, 08:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Never mind the numbers, I don't think there is any question that when a player leaves the game and a player of lesser ability comes in it can have a significant impact on the game. BUT, when a player gets into foul trouble it is the player who should be "more careful," not the official.
Not all players with high abilities make the game better, some make it worse and having them out makes the game go better.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 10, 2018, 09:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Not all players with high abilities make the game better, some make it worse and having them out makes the game go better.

Making the game go better is one example of significant impact.
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