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-   -   Delay of Game (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104178-delay-game.html)

Zoochy Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:59am

Delay of Game
 
Team A spills water on the court at the end of a 30 second time-out. They start cleaning up the spill. How long would you wait before assessing the warning for 'Delay of Game'?

Mregor Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 1026750)
Team A spills water on the court at the end of a 30 second time-out. They start cleaning up the spill. How long would you wait before assessing the warning for 'Delay of Game'?

If they are cleaning it up, I wouldn't. Only if I have to ask them to clean it up.

BillyMac Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:50pm

Niagara Falls ...
 
It's in the books. Never seen it called.

Had a team tip over an entire water cooler near the end of halftime intermission. Sure, my partner and I talked about it, but we just waited it out. Now if the opposing coach had complained, then we would have had to enforce.

LRZ Wed Dec 05, 2018 01:28pm

A partner called it once, actually a T for a second delay. I thought it was OOO.

BillyMac Wed Dec 05, 2018 01:46pm

Fool Me Once, Shame On You ...
 
... Fool me twice, shame on me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1026766)
A partner called it once, actually a T for a second delay.

I could see that, being the second delay. They should have learned their lesson the first time, they obviously didn't.

SC Official Wed Dec 05, 2018 01:53pm

I've called it once before when the team was lackadaisical in getting it cleaned up. Additionally the other team had already been given a delay warning, so I couldn't justify ignoring the rule otherwise the coach would've been up my rear.

BillyMac Wed Dec 05, 2018 02:11pm

Context ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026769)
I've called it once before when the team was lackadaisical in getting it cleaned up. Additionally the other team had already been given a delay warning, so I couldn't justify ignoring the rule otherwise the coach would've been up my rear.

Context is always an important part of game management.

LRZ Wed Dec 05, 2018 05:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026768)
... Fool me twice, shame on me.
I could see that, being the second delay. They should have learned their lesson the first time, they obviously didn't.

The first delay was a throw-in plane violation. Here, the team was about to wipe up the water on the floor, following a 30-second time-out. Two different scenarios, in my book. One was an intentional act, causing delay; the other was not intentional, and, unlike in SC's case, the team was not lackadaisical.

BillyMac Wed Dec 05, 2018 06:23pm

Gray Is The New Gray ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1026792)
The first delay was a throw-in plane violation. Here, the team was about to wipe up the water on the floor, following a 30-second time-out. Two different scenarios, in my book. One was an intentional act, causing delay; the other was not intentional, and, unlike in SC's case, the team was not lackadaisical.

I thought they spilled water twice. This new information makes it more of a gray area.

Stat-Man Wed Dec 05, 2018 08:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026758)
It's in the books. Never seen it called.


I've only called it once in six years.


Someone from the home team spilled a bit of water on the court right as the timeout ended. Had they been able to clean it up right away with little to no delay, I might have passed. However, it took them 2-3 minutes just to get someone with a mop to begin the cleanup, so I saw no choice but to assess the DOG warning as the game was truly delayed.

crosscountry55 Thu Dec 06, 2018 01:14pm

With apologies to the late Antonin Scalia, context matters (i.e. I agree with BillyMac).


I think the intent of the rule is to keep teams from getting extended timeout time while they clean up a mess. Picture this situation with an assistant coach: "Oops, oh silly me. I just spilled water all over the court. Now I need to go find some towels." Meanwhile, HC keeps talking to his team for 1-2 additional minutes. Yeah, I'd say that would warrant DOG warning.


Whereas if someone clearly spills something by accident, and there doesn't appear to be any attempt to benefit from it vis-à-vis the huddle, I'm probably not issuing the DOG.


P.S. 10 years, never called it. Came close only once.

Zoochy Thu Dec 06, 2018 01:30pm

Here was the reason for my question.
A 30 second TO was called. Teans are standing on court . Water is handed to them. Partner approaches Team A and informs them to NOT bring water anto the court. The 2nd horn for the TO sounds as teams are breaking huddle a player from Team A throws their bottle/cup towards the bench. Water from the bottle/cup spills onto court.
From the time of the spillage and clean up to the time the DOG warning was at least 45 seconds to a minute.
Thus my question.. How long do you wait?

BillyMac Thu Dec 06, 2018 01:48pm

I Know It When I See It (U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, 1964) …
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 1026807)
Partner approaches Team A and informs them to NOT bring water onto the court.

Citation please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 1026807)
How long do you wait?

Great question. Better question is under what circumstances does one officially warn, or charge a technical foul for such a delay?

Context? Completely and innocently accidental, or was it utter stupidity and total carelessness (like throwing a half full paper cup of water)?

I've never warned, nor have I ever charged, but it's still a tool in my black referee tool belt that I may use at some point in the future, but I'm going to have to be there and see it in person to make my decision.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 06, 2018 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 1026807)
Here was the reason for my question.
A 30 second TO was called. Teans are standing on court . Water is handed to them. Partner approaches Team A and informs them to NOT bring water anto the court. The 2nd horn for the TO sounds as teams are breaking huddle a player from Team A throws their bottle/cup towards the bench. Water from the bottle/cup spills onto court.
From the time of the spillage and clean up to the time the DOG warning was at least 45 seconds to a minute.
Thus my question.. How long do you wait?

1. The teams may drink water in their time-our area. They may also move chairs onto the court in that area. This is a 30 so the five players must remain standing, but anyone else may sit or stand as desired.

2. The answer of how long to wait for the DOG warning is simple. If the team doesn’t have the court ready for play when the second horn sounds then they are delaying the game and have earned a warning.

BillyMac Thu Dec 06, 2018 03:40pm

Theory Versus Practice ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1026814)
If the team doesn’t have the court ready for play when the second horn sounds then they are delaying the game and have earned a warning.

Well stated. Simple and factual explanation. Agree 100% in theory (by the book), but what do you actually see in practice in your little corner of the country?

Raymond Thu Dec 06, 2018 03:58pm

The purpose of the DOG warning for water on the court is to discourage teams from drinking water on the court during time-outs.

AremRed Thu Dec 06, 2018 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1026817)
The purpose of the DOG warning for water on the court is to discourage teams from drinking water on the court during time-outs.

Also to, you know, keep the game going.

BillyMac Thu Dec 06, 2018 05:42pm

Water Water Everywhere ...
 
The Rime of the Ancient Mariner (Samuel Taylor Coleridge, 1798)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1026817)
The purpose of the DOG warning for water on the court is to discourage teams from drinking water on the court during time-outs.

And just how has that been working out for us?

I'm old enough to remember when athletes were discouraged from drinking water and salt pills were handed out like penny candy.

Nevadaref Fri Dec 07, 2018 01:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1026817)
The purpose of the DOG warning for water on the court is to discourage teams from drinking water on the court during time-outs.

No, it is not.
The purpose is to prevent teams from taking advantage of a safety situation to prolong a time-out in order to gain extra rest.

BillyMac Fri Dec 07, 2018 08:57am

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1026817)
The purpose of the DOG warning for water on the court is to discourage teams from drinking water on the court during time-outs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1026850)
The purpose is to prevent teams from taking advantage of a safety situation to prolong a time-out in order to gain extra rest.

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes

Additional Delay Warning Added; Only One Delay Warning Per Game (4-47-4, 10-1-5): A new delay situation was added for failure to have the court ready to play following any time-out. An official will now issue one team delay warning per game for any one of four delay situations. Any subsequent team delay in any one of the four categories will result in a team technical foul. The change will assist with the flow of the game, as well as the administration of the rule by officials and scorers.

10.1.5 Situation: Following the second horn, indicating the timeout has ended, Team A is still wiping up water from the playing court and delays the game from resuming. Ruling: Team A is warned for delay. If a previous warning for any type of delay had been issued, a technical foul shall be charged ((10-1-5-E, 4-47-4)

Raymond Fri Dec 07, 2018 09:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1026850)
No, it is not.
The purpose is to prevent teams from taking advantage of a safety situation to prolong a time-out in order to gain extra rest.

Those clean-ups occur while the 5 players are already out on the court, so there is nothing to prolong. It interrupts restarting the game. "Extra rest" :rolleyes:

NCAA game out with the rule first, explicitly to keep players from drinking water on the court because of the delays that occurred when they spilled, and the NFHS added the rule a couple years later.


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