The Official Forum - Travelling/sitting

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- - Travelling/sitting (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104142-travelling-sitting.html)

Camron Rust

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1026829)

Think you are answering your own question. Would not the words "touch to prevent" = control?

No.

Control != Player Control.

A tap for a goal is controlled but it isn't player control.

Control, for the purposes of the traveling rule required holding the ball...no hold, no travel. Briefly pinning the ball between a hand and the floor isn't holding to me.

BillyMac

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:16pm

Generic Control ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1026868)

A tap for a goal is controlled but it isn't player control.

Agree, but let's be careful to not confuse the young'uns.

A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling
a live ball.

A tap for goal is the contacting of the ball with any part of a player’s
hand(s) in an attempt to direct the ball into his/her basket.

The definitions in the NFHS Rulebook may not be the same as the definitions in Funk and Wagnalls.

Camron Rust

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026869)

Agree...that is precisely my point.

The player never held the ball while on the floor....it was more of a hand-check! ;)

He did potentially travel when he stood up and grabbed the ball...he may have grabbed it before his knee lifted but that is really close and I'd lean towards no travel on that one too.

bucky

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026083)

Thanks.

I will change my List to read: A player must be holding the ball (with rare exception) in order to travel (changing "exception" from plural to singular).

Note: It's nice to know that a few Forum members actually read my very numerous posts. I will admit that sometimes I post things that are self serving, the posts help me understand things, or remind me of things. As a retired teacher, I know that scientific studies substantiate that the physical act of writing (and possibly typing, or keyboarding) boosts learning. That's why I always had my students take notes in class every day, even if the material was in the textbook. This method may not have helped all of them to learn (there are so many different learning styles) but it definitely helped many of them to learn and to achieve success in my classroom.

Also consider case 4.44.3 SIT A letter d. With the touch (note, not a hold/catch), there is a traveling violation. FYI -

BillyMac

Tue Dec 18, 2018 07:13am

Traveling ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027344)

Also consider case 4.44.3 SIT A letter d. With the touch (note, not a hold/catch), there is a traveling violation.

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

BillyMac

Tue Dec 18, 2018 08:17am

Not Really ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026051)

It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1026054)

Is this the only time that a player will travel and will not be holding the ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027344)

Also consider case 4.44.3 SIT A letter d. With the touch (note, not a hold/catch), there is a traveling violation. FYI -

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027345)

A1 is holding the ball when he lifts his pivot foot to start a dribble and thus travels. The touch just identifies this act as a dribble rather than a bounce pass.

Camron Rust

Tue Dec 18, 2018 03:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027347)

A1 is holding the ball when he lifts his pivot foot to start a dribble and thus travels. The touch just identifies this act as a dribble rather than a bounce pass.

Agree. The travel happens when the ball is released to start a dribble with the pivot foot lifted. The subsequent touch merely confirms it was a dribble.

bucky

Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027347)

A1 is holding the ball when he lifts his pivot foot to start a dribble and thus travels. The touch just identifies this act as a dribble rather than a bounce pass.

Although not arguing but rather just sayin'.... Suppose in the case play, A1 releases the ball, it hits the floor, and bounces for 30 seconds until coming to a rest, at which point, A1 is the first to touch the ball. This would be called traveling and based on your rational, the violation will have occurred well in the past. Can you think of any other type of play whereby an offense is guilty of an offense well in the past and not when it actually occurs? (maybe there is one but I cannot think of any)

Also, A1, while in the air, receives/catches a pass from A2. While still in the air, A1 drops the ball to the floor. Can A1 touch it? Grab it? Other? Legal?

BillyMac

Wed Dec 19, 2018 02:15am

Back To The Future (1985) ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027414)

... in the case play, A1 releases the ball, it hits the floor, and bounces for 30 seconds until coming to a rest, at which point, A1 is the first to touch the ball. This would be called traveling and based on your rational, the violation will have occurred well in the past. Can you think of any other type of play whereby an offense is guilty of an offense well in the past and not when it actually occurs?

Do such plays involve a flux capacitor?

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.S...=0&w=269&h=161

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027414)

A1, while in the air, receives/catches a pass from A2. While still in the air, A1 drops the ball to the floor. Can A1 touch it? Grab it? Other? Legal?

Touch it? Keep dribbling? Grab it without dribbling again? Grab it and pass? Grab it and shoot? Grab it, or dribble it, and request a timeout? Grab it and chew gum?

All legal.

bucky

Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027420)

Touch it? Keep dribbling? Grab it without dribbling again? Grab it and pass? Grab it and shoot? Grab it, or dribble it, and request a timeout? Grab it and chew gum?

All legal.

Exactly, as this is the start of a dribble, all done without the presence of a pivot foot. Although, the ball could not be grabbed/held and dribbled again.

One could get into a very convoluted network of semantics, interpretations, contradictions, and deletions when discussing the actual adjudication/mechanics of 4.44.3 SIT A letter d, 4.15.1 SIT C, and 4.15 comment, as well as the somewhat contradictory phrases surrounding a dribble, traveling, etc.

A1 grabs a defensive rebound with two hands and , while still in the air, taps the opponent's backboard with the ball. A1 lands and begins dribbling. Legal? Yes, as holding the ball while touching the opponent's backboard is not considered to be a dribble just as holding the ball and touching the floor is not. Now, A1 grabs a defensive rebound and, while in the air, throws the ball gently off the opponent's backboard. A1 lands, grabs the ball, and begins dribbling. Are you going to call an illegal dribbling violation? Yes.

What does all this mean? Not a lot.;)

BillyMac

Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:52pm

A Rogue Elephant Tried To Shell Him (1997) ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027447)

What does all this mean? Not a lot.

Made me chuckle. Thanks.

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