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-   -   D3 Player Takes Cheap Shot (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104139-d3-player-takes-cheap-shot.html)

JRutledge Thu Nov 15, 2018 02:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026068)
Are you naive enough to think the average coach knows the rules well enough to know whether this play is an F2PF or F2TF?
Coaches complain about things that happen in games whether they know the rule or not. That was not the baseline of my position where I believe this is about what a coach knows. My point is that coaches often complain about things they "think" they know and if that little part influenced the game, they might complain. A dead ball technical in Men's college is 2 shots and the ball automatically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026068)
The offender was ejected and the offended team got two FTs and the ball-that is the only thing that a coach would care about.
Coaches can be very petty, even at the college level. So you say that is all they care about, but I have seen coaches complain just because they do not like a particular coach. That is where the supervisor comes in to make sanity out of a situation, but they might care. And a supervisor might care more. So to say it does not matter is not really true.

Peace

JRutledge Thu Nov 15, 2018 02:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1026062)
If you are sure, fine. But what if it went the other way and the ball was completely through the net when the foul happened and you called a flagrant 2? You'd be just as wrong, just the other way.
Just as wrong? How do we know that the ball was completely through the basket? Did you have to stop the video several times to make sure? That is the thing we could do if we had replay. In this game there likely is no replay. And yes that matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1026062)
The T has a guy get coldcocked in the corner - I'd hope any supervisor would focus on the important issue - that the player was ejected.
I hope a lot of things, but that does not mean it will take place that way.

I am not disagreeing with you if it is obvious, but it is not at all obvious. Meaning I have to look at the video very closely and even slow it down to know if that is what actually took place. A Flagrant Foul is a definite in this situation. But if you make it a T because you say it is a dead ball is not so much. Because as stated before, the coach might try everything to undermine your call.

Peace

bucky Thu Nov 15, 2018 04:58pm
Get your point Jrut, not arguing.

I do not think any of the 3 officials could tell you if the ball was dead or not at the time of the foul. L turns and watches the paint so he can't see when the foul occurs. C is likely watching rebounders and their action and he too would not know when the foul occurred. The T called the foul and knows when it happened. He also acknowledged the made 3 so he knows when that happened but he does not know which took place first. This would be a case where general basketball play would help. Generally speaking, 3-point shooters are fouled before the ball passes through the net. When was the last time you saw this not happen? So, given this and no monitor, it would be a safe and practical ruling to say the ball was live at the time of the foul.

As others have said, the focus will be on the injured player, the offender, calming the coaches/benches, etc. not splitting hairs on whether the ball was completely through the net or not.

JRutledge Fri Nov 16, 2018 07:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1026080)
Get your point Jrut, not arguing.
This is a discussion board. This is kind of the point of this site to hash out the details of a situation. You do not have to tell me you are not arguing on a play that has elements of the play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1026080)
I do not think any of the 3 officials could tell you if the ball was dead or not at the time of the foul. L turns and watches the paint so he can't see when the foul occurs. C is likely watching rebounders and their action and he too would not know when the foul occurred. The T called the foul and knows when it happened. He also acknowledged the made 3 so he knows when that happened but he does not know which took place first. This would be a case where general basketball play would help. Generally speaking, 3-point shooters are fouled before the ball passes through the net. When was the last time you saw this not happen? So, given this and no monitor, it would be a safe and practical ruling to say the ball was live at the time of the foul.
All interesting discussion points. But that is not my point if this was for me. At the very least this is not the actual coach's tape. It might be a version of that, so we are speculating on what the officials were looking at completely or even what seemed to happen. But something tells me that a T was not likely called in this situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1026080)
As others have said, the focus will be on the injured player, the offender, calming the coaches/benches, etc. not splitting hairs on whether the ball was completely through the net or not.
I am not talking about what people are focused on during the game. During the game, they might not care. But you also do not know what happened in this game before. There are coaches that will justify all kinds of things in a game and will justify it by picking at what you called. And I am mostly talking about after the game is over. There tends to be more conversation with supervisors about plays in college because of the stakes. All I was saying and still saying, it better show up on tape. If you are going to call a T, it better not be because you "think" the ball went through, you better be right. The only reason to call a T is that the ball is dead. I'm just saying be sure.

Peace

SC Official Fri Nov 16, 2018 08:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1026069)
Coaches complain about things that happen in games whether they know the rule or not. That was not the baseline of my position where I believe this is about what a coach knows. My point is that coaches often complain about things they "think" they know and if that little part influenced the game, they might complain. A dead ball technical in Men's college is 2 shots and the ball automatically.

Coaches can be very petty, even at the college level. So you say that is all they care about, but I have seen coaches complain just because they do not like a particular coach. That is where the supervisor comes in to make sanity out of a situation, but they might care. And a supervisor might care more. So to say it does not matter is not really true.
A contact dead ball technical is two shots and possession, and that's not really relevant to this situation.

This is either a flagrant 2 personal or technical, and it's two shots and possession regardless of whichever is ruled. What I am surprised by is that the offended player shot the FTs; I thought trainers had come out on the floor to check on him, which would have mandated a sub unless a TO was granted.

It's highly unlikely, in this instance, that any coach is going to throw a fit because the ball was thrown in at the 28-foot line rather than the division line, or vice-versa. Especially at the D3 level where the majority of coaches have less-than-stellar rules knowledge. Heck there are plenty of officials that can't even tell you the difference between F2 personal and technical fouls; you mean to tell me the average coach would be able to?

JRutledge Fri Nov 16, 2018 09:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026096)
Heck there are plenty of officials that can't even tell you the difference between F2 personal and technical fouls; you mean to tell me the average coach would be able to?
I am going to keep saying this until it sinks in. I do not care what the coach ultimately thinks. But if the coach says something to the supervisor, that person might actually care how you administered the rule. The supervisor might care if you actually called something that does not show up on tape. The supervisor actually might care who made the call an why. The coach just might be the person that bitches initially about the situation which would not be just about this play. I bet if you did not call something earlier in the game that might be something that gets sent to the supervisor for review. I would also as a crew or Referee have to give a report to the supervisor as to what happened. And depending on the level, this might have to be filed to the National Organization (NAIA and JUCO require ejection reports filed to them directly). Forgive me, I like to be right when those things take place and those reports. This is not high school where maybe the assignor even cares or even the state cares little about this or never contacts you about the report you file. I do not like to administer things that did not happen or did not follow the rule just because, "No one will notice" at the college level particularly. And this is not a slam dunk dead ball situation, which I would rather not rule on without being sure. I had to slow it down to even have a debate in the first place. I do not give a flying farfonickle what the darn coach does in this situation ultimately during or after the game. But my conversation after the game is not going to be with the coach. It will be with my supervisor on some level and not all supervisors just say, "I really do not care because you threw out the kid..." type of people.

Peace

Rich Fri Nov 16, 2018 09:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1026097)
I am going to keep saying this until it sinks in. I do not care what the coach ultimately thinks. But if the coach says something to the supervisor, that person might actually care how you administered the rule. The supervisor might care if you actually called something that does not show up on tape. The supervisor actually might care who made the call an why. The coach just might be the person that bitches initially about the situation which would not be just about this play. I bet if you did not call something earlier in the game that might be something that gets sent to the supervisor for review. I would also as a crew or Referee have to give a report to the supervisor as to what happened. And depending on the level, this might have to be filed to the National Organization (NAIA and JUCO require ejection reports filed to them directly). Forgive me, I like to be right when those things take place and those reports. This is not high school where maybe the assignor even cares or even the state cares little about this or never contacts you about the report you file. I do not like to administer things that did not happen or did not follow the rule just because, "No one will notice" at the college level particularly. And this is not a slam dunk dead ball situation, which I would rather not rule on without being sure. I had to slow it down to even have a debate in the first place. I do not give a flying farfonickle what the darn coach does in this situation ultimately during or after the game. But my conversation after the game is not going to be with the coach. It will be with my supervisor on some level and not all supervisors just say, "I really do not care because you threw out the kid..." type of people.



Peace

Either it's a live ball foul or a dead ball foul. You're either right or wrong. But you seem to be saying it's worse to call this a dead ball foul and be wrong than vice versa.

That makes no sense at all.

Rignt is right, wrong is wrong, and without a monitor nobody has the exact timing on this. It's a best guess from this crew, one which appears to be correct.


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SC Official Fri Nov 16, 2018 09:29am
JRut, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. No one disputed that getting the adjudication right should be a priority.

My point has been, and still is, that this ball is close enough to being dead (it's in the freaking net when the hit occurs, not sure why you can't grasp that) that no supervisor worth his salt is going to harp on whether this is ruled a personal or technical foul. They are going to focus on the important issue: that the offender was ejected from the game. There are assigners that probably don't even know what the technically correct administration is on this play.

Yes, the ball is live. Yes, the correct ruling is an F2 personal foul. And it looks like they administered it as such. No one is disputing that you (and I) are correct in our ruling. We are only saying that it is close enough that, as long as the offender is ejected and the offended team gets 2 shots and the ball, it is petty to focus on whether the throw-in was technically at the right spot or not.

JRutledge Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026099)
JRut, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. No one disputed that getting the adjudication right should be a priority.
I am not actually making anything out of this. You are the one trying to convince me of your process. You can do what you like. I personally do not care. Just telling you what I would do (based only on the very limited information we have in this video). And it is not like we work for the same people that tell us how to handle situations without monitors. I thought you did not even do Men's college?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026099)
My point has been, and still is, that this ball is close enough to being dead (it's in the freaking net when the hit occurs, not sure why you can't grasp that) that no supervisor worth his salt is going to harp on whether this is ruled a personal or technical foul. They are going to focus on the important issue: that the offender was ejected from the game. There are assigners that probably don't even know what the technically correct administration is on this play.
I do not think you can grasp what I said. I was not asking how close it was. I was asking to be sure. BTW, there is a better view of the play online by an official that puts out good content. Not the cropped view. I even said I would like to see the entire play. And the play in question might not be as clear live. Remember, they have no monitor (very unlikely). This might actually be only one official that sees the picture here in real time. We did not even know if the official saw the play and not only did he see it, he clearly was calling the Flagrant Foul at the spot. You are judging this by watching a video and likely slowing it down or seeing it over and over again. That official had one shot and it is not even clear if the C saw the play or had a different picture or information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026099)
Yes, the ball is live. Yes, the correct ruling is an F2 personal foul. And it looks like they administered it as such. No one is disputing that you (and I) are correct in our ruling. We are only saying that it is close enough that, as long as the offender is ejected and the offended team gets 2 shots and the ball, it is petty to focus on whether the throw-in was technically at the right spot or not.
You keep talking about what coaches think, but do not see I do not give a damn about what any coach thinks in this conversation. I made that rather clear if you were paying attention.

Peace

Rich Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1026099)
JRut, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. No one disputed that getting the adjudication right should be a priority.

My point has been, and still is, that this ball is close enough to being dead (it's in the freaking net when the hit occurs, not sure why you can't grasp that) that no supervisor worth his salt is going to harp on whether this is ruled a personal or technical foul. They are going to focus on the important issue: that the offender was ejected from the game. There are assigners that probably don't even know what the technically correct administration is on this play.

Yes, the ball is live. Yes, the correct ruling is an F2 personal foul. And it looks like they administered it as such. No one is disputing that you (and I) are correct in our ruling. We are only saying that it is close enough that, as long as the offender is ejected and the offended team gets 2 shots and the ball, it is petty to focus on whether the throw-in was technically at the right spot or not.

Time to give up. He's not going to hear either one of us. No reason to be surprised, either.


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JRutledge Sat Nov 17, 2018 01:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1026155)
Time to give up. He's not going to hear either one of us. No reason to be surprised, either.
I hear you, I do not agree with you. It is that simple. No need to complicate this. ;)

Peace

crosscountry55 Sat Nov 17, 2018 01:16pm
The last word is a precious commodity to some...


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Rich Sat Nov 17, 2018 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1026157)
The last word is a precious commodity to some...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I never did get an answer to my question, either:

Is it somehow better to be wrong calling it a live ball F2 if it's really a dead ball (and therefore should've been a flagrant technical) than if you get it wrong in the other direction (call it a dead ball flagrant TF when it should've been a live ball F2)?

Oh, well. Sucked into the vortex, like always.

ilyazhito Sat Nov 17, 2018 04:53pm
If the shot was already successful when the flagrant foul happened, then it would be a flagrant 2 technical foul, the ball would be put in play at the division line after 2 free throws by ANY player.
If the shot was not yet successful at the time of the flagrant foul, then it would be a flagrant 2 personal foul, the ball would be put in play at the nearest designated spot (the nearest spot to the corner is the 28' mark on that side) following 2 free throws by THE VICTIM of the flagrant foul.
In either case, the offender would be ejected from the game, but it is important to be clear on what type of foul happened, because it affects further administration of the game. If I was on the crew, I would send the players to the benches, talk to the T before he reports the foul (unless I am the T, in which case I would call the other officials together and tell them that I have a flagrant 2 foul on White 23, and that he will be ejected from the game. I would ask L and C if the foul was before or after the ball entered the basket, and finally contribute my input. Then, we would decide how to adjudicate the play), and then decide whether the ball entered the basket before or after the foul as a crew. Then, we would adjudicate the play appropriately.

I would call this a flagrant 2 technical foul, because the official had time to signal the successful shot before he called the foul (i.e. the ball had entered the basket before the foul was committed).

Altor Sat Nov 17, 2018 05:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1026163)
(i.e. the ball had entered the basket before the foul was committed).
Entering the basket does not make the ball dead.


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