The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 536
Referee Shortage Discussion-- 127 unfilled varsity games

I was forwarded an email by a friend trying to help out from an assigner in the area. It was a plea for help, as there are spots unfilled in 127 VARSITY games for this season. Girls games start this week, boys soon after so we are down to crunch time. I truly think this is becoming a crisis in our state. We've already been told that a lot of the 1A games will be 2 man crews (will we get extra pay for this I wonder?).

I think it's a combination of things that are creeping up to finally bite us. Here's my list, anything else you guys are seeing in your states that is contributing to the shortage?

1. The good old boys club- Until the assignor who does the metro area here took over a few years ago, the old assignor only used his crews for the big school games. I have another friend who officiated for 7 years and his last year he was still driving 60-90 min for 1A games 2 times a week. He is a good official, it had nothing to do with his skill (averaged 4.6/5 on his evals over his last 3 years). No wonder nobody wants to stick around with that. Now we're trying to get these guys back.
Along the same lines, you see guys down at the state tournament not using Fed mechanics. For a guy who is trying to get to that point, how can someone not be frustrated to get dinged on evals for this exact thing, and then see it at the highest level of HS ball here?

2. I love the "What we permit, we promote" line. I think ADs, some assignors, and coaches, and especially our state associations have permitted too much BS. A lot of guys are hesitant to whack a coach in a big game because they don't want to lose those games. If a coach or kid has it coming, you should be able to give him his cup of tea and not think twice. While I do think we should be game managers, there is far too much emphasis by the state on coach/AD feedback when it comes to playoff games. Simply put, if coaches don't like you, you're not getting playoff games.

3. Pay- $115 is the standard pay for a varsity G/B double header in our big conference. I know schools are being squeezed, but I can see why a guy would leave. That's the highest in our area. A lot of schools are $90-$100. Is it worth it to get treated like crap all night by coaches and players for that? It seems like a lot of guys are speaking with their schedule/willingness to work games.

I love this gig, and I don't see myself leaving for any of the above reasons. But I can absolutely see why we are having so much trouble finding guys to fill games. At this point, we're just trying to get a warm body in there. I feel bad for the assignors in the area, as I'm sure the schools are putting the screws to them to get these filled, but what can you do if there's nobody to do the games?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 780
#2 seems to be at odds with the theme of the post. If officials are that scarce, it should be easy to start disciplining poor behavior. Theories of supply and demand would tell you that they aren't going to blackball officials if it means they can't play games on Friday nights.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
#2 seems to be at odds with the theme of the post. If officials are that scarce, it should be easy to start disciplining poor behavior. Theories of supply and demand would tell you that they aren't going to blackball officials if it means they can't play games on Friday nights.
You'll still get Friday night games. But either
A. You won't sniff the playoffs
and/or
B. You won't get good Friday night games

The supply is there during the playoffs. EVERYONE wants to work playoffs. I think that's the problem with that particular point-- everyone wants to work playoffs so they put up with the crap to get to the playoffs. Then they're either burned out by coach/player behavior, or they don't get playoff games because they punished deserving behavior.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:10pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Isn't the sportsmanship issue kind of on the officials? I mean if you give a T and you are more worried about getting a playoff game, then what is right for that game or future situations, that is not on anyone else. I get that you need to be supported, but you also need to know that if you do the right thing it is going to be hard in the long run to ban everyone that does the right thing. I get the fear, but sometimes in my experience, that fear is more internal than real. Many times you will be supported or you likely passed a lot of other schools to get to the school you pissed off. Now they are going to get who they may not want regardless of the reasoning.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Isn't the sportsmanship issue kind of on the officials? I mean if you give a T and you are more worried about getting a playoff game, then what is right for that game or future situations, that is not on anyone else. I get that you need to be supported, but you also need to know that if you do the right thing it is going to be hard in the long run to ban everyone that does the right thing. I get the fear, but sometimes in my experience, that fear is more internal than real. Many times you will be supported or you likely passed a lot of other schools to get to the school you pissed off. Now they are going to get who they may not want regardless of the reasoning.

Peace
I don't disagree. It's hard to change an entire culture though, as that is not a very prevalent attitude in our area. Guys are proud of how much they'll put up with and how few T's they give out.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 01:18pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
I don't disagree. It's hard to change an entire culture though, as that is not a very prevalent attitude in our area. Guys are proud of how much they'll put up with and how few T's they give out.
I'm not expecting that anyone changes the culture of where you are. But I find it funny that officials do not look at the bigger picture and realize that they are not getting hosed by something if they do their job. If officials looked at the bigger picture and if the situation is so dire for officials, then you could do a lot of things and only banning someone would put them in this situation where there are not games covered.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 01:55pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
You Know What You've Got, Spunk!" (Ed Asner, Mary Tyler Moore Show, 1970) …

Although we do have a very few brown nose guys who try to please state tournament voting coaches (that's all state coaches, winners and losers) by not issuing technical fouls when deserved, most of the guys around here go by the philosophy that if you give one coach a deserved technical foul the opposing coach will think, "Hey, this official doesn't put up with any unsporting bullshit. He takes care of business. He's got spunk. I'd should remember his name for the State tournament ballot".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 02:22pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
It's The Law ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
... the old assignor only used his crews for the big school games.
I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but here in my little corner of Connecticut, by our local constitution, we haven't allowed a working official to be our assignment commissioner for many, many years.

One either assigns games, or one works games, but one can't do both.

Prevents some potential problems.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 02:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but here in my little corner of Connecticut, by our local constitution, we haven't allowed a working official to be our assignment commissioner for many, many years.

One either assigns games, or one works games, but one can't do both.

Prevents some potential problems.
I was not clear on that. I meant that he had 7-8 crews that he trusted and always put on those games. Other guys didn't get a chance. He was not officiating, but he was running camps and you definitely didn't have a shot without going to his camps.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 03:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,742
I work in RI now. Like BillyMac, it’s a state with all 2-person games. There is no officials shortage here. There are lots of guys who don’t work every night. As a transfer, I’ll likely be one of them.

If they went to 3-p, I’m sure I could work every night, but there would probably be some games that would be hard to fill.

The modern game badly needs the 3rd official (especially with a shot clock). The paradox is that between reluctant budget managers and an ongoing recruitment drought, you have to choose between more poorly officiated games or games that can’t be played when you want them to be. It’s a lose-lose.

I fear more places that have embraced 3-p may have to revert back to 2-p. It won’t yield a 50% boon, though, because folks like Rich will probably just hang it up rather than revert.

The whole situation kinda sucks...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 04:43pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
I work in RI now. Like BillyMac, it’s a state with all 2-person games. There is no officials shortage here. There are lots of guys who don’t work every night. As a transfer, I’ll likely be one of them.

If they went to 3-p, I’m sure I could work every night, but there would probably be some games that would be hard to fill.

The modern game badly needs the 3rd official (especially with a shot clock). The paradox is that between reluctant budget managers and an ongoing recruitment drought, you have to choose between more poorly officiated games or games that can’t be played when you want them to be. It’s a lose-lose.

I fear more places that have embraced 3-p may have to revert back to 2-p. It won’t yield a 50% boon, though, because folks like Rich will probably just hang it up rather than revert.

The whole situation kinda sucks...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not that concerned about that here. And, yes, I will retire before working another 2-person game. I may end up having to do so anyway -- my knee is not recovering after my May surgery and I'm not sure I will be able to do a job in the way I need to.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 04:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 05:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.
That is not how 3-p works.

A weak U2 can destroy a game as fast as anything. Once the game starts, the U2 is just as important as the R for all practical purposes.

3-p is more complicated and many JV officials just aren't not ready to add that. They've got enough to work on without complicating it with 3-person mechanics.

JV officials are brought in in phases similar to what you suggest (in most places). Few have exclusive varsity rosters and exclusive JV rosters. There will often be people working both to some degree.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association

Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Nov 12, 2018 at 07:07pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 05:07pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
That is not how 3-p works.



A weak U2 can destroy a game as fast as anything. Once the game starts, the U2 is just as important as the R for all practical purposes.



3-p is more complicated and many JV officials just aren't not ready to add that. They're got enough to work on without complicating it with 3-person mechanics.



JV officials are brought in in phases similar to what you suggest (in most places). Few have exclusive varsity rosters and exclusive JV rosters. There will often be people working both to some degree.


For all the words he posts, he sure seems to know little about how games are officiated.

The R or designee tosses the ball and after that, the officials are interchangable. You can't put someone who's learning on every game, but I'd take someone who's a fairly decent JV official over 2-person ANY day.

Assigner hat here: And the schools would be right to not pay a dime more per person with 2-person crews. It's not their fault they aren't getting three officials.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 12, 2018, 05:22pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
I Call Shotgun ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
The modern game badly needs the 3rd official (especially with a shot clock).
Connecticut officials seldom work three person games, a few big city rivalry games, and State quarterfinal tournament games on up.

Connecticut officials seldom work games with a shot clock, just prep school varsity games.

I'm on record as liking the mental and physical challenge of a two person game.

However, if Connecticut ever goes to a shot clock, I'll climb on board the three person band wagon before anybody even thinks about jumping on.

I will be on the bandwagon so fast it will make your head spin. I call shotgun.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 13, 2018 at 12:10pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
referee shortage? rsl Basketball 25 Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:47am
Between games discussion - catcher calling time MD Longhorn Softball 18 Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:45pm
Referee shortage (good or bad) crazy voyager Basketball 7 Thu Dec 08, 2005 08:44am
Live Discussion During Bowl Games TXMike Football 5 Mon Jan 03, 2005 07:58am
REFEREE/UMPIRE SOFTBALL DISCUSSION IRISHMAFIA Softball 0 Sat Sep 02, 2000 10:18am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:39pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1