I know this may spark something because it has with a select few officials I have brought this up with, however the majority of officials I work with agree with me.

First off, I'm a P. A. announcer who is also an official (I'm a refs worst nightmare, I know what I can get away with).

Second, what is up with the big-headedness and the "I'm too good for this" attitude I've seen from some officials. This is at all levels of basketball. I once announced a high school girls JV tournament game where one official made all the calls and his partner did not want to be there. The problem was, this official couldn't get a travelling call right. You must move your feet for there to be a travel (which is another post altogether) or did they invoke a new rule and not tell Dickie V about it? He's the only one that communicates new basketball rules.

Anyway, back to the situation at hand. The official threw out four fans and a scorer. As the PA announcer and tournament official, I was in my rights to inform him that he cannot eject the fans for what they say. He also informed me that there was to be silence from the fans for the rest of the game. I told him I was embarassed to call myself a member of his association and if he wanted it, he'd have to tell the fans himself. He threatened me with a technical, except I was not affiliate with any of the teams in the tournament, but with the facility. My question here is, who shoots the ball?

But after this tournament, the home team at the facility in which I worked, didn't get officiating like that but the referee was assigned several high profile games. Is there really a grading system out there? If so, then why not get fans to rate officials and not other officials. I talk to coaches, players, fans and administrators after games I do and what do I get? Helpful information. I've had fans curse at me, but when I ask them for help and they give it to me, I don't get yelled at later on and the fans don't get as riled toward the officials. I walk on the court and I'm a calming influence. Why can't all officials do this and get over the "I'm God" personality.

Thank you for your time.

This happens everywhere
 

First try to imagine that its possible that this person was having a bad night. On other circumstances, he may call great games.

I have been at volleyball games where the ref throws out fans. I know that the AD is supposed to do that. So, once she did, she had hell the rest of the night from the rest of the fans.

I know refs that really get in the CONTROL mode and think they have to dictate every little aspect of the game and think everyone else is there for them. But, apparently some people like this because as you say, they get good games for the schedulers and administrators. I cannot understand how this happens other than coaches being polite and not complaining and team officials don't want to talk bad about their associates.

Eventually, enough people scratch these people and either don't want them at their games, or fellow refs don't want to call with them. So, be patient. It all works out.

For seven years in Northern Virginia, I had some bad officials. The one I spoke about was in NY, but in Virginia there were a few that had it. And some got weeded out while others didn't. There was one official that always seemed to have Regional games that no coach that I talked to gave a favorable grade to.

The problem that I have seen (and benefitted from personally) is that associations are always complaining they don't have enough officials. Well stop complaining and do something. Each night there is a game, you have players and parents who obviously have a pretty good idea of the game, put posters up at schools to recruit. Then you'll run into the problem of too many and the good ones will rise to the top.

It's true, one bad official can spoil the rest and most fans don't spot that. I do and expose it as a fan. I've had Major League umpires give me the finger during games, I've had NCAA officials give me the cut it out sign. As a Minor League P. A. announcer, I've even been warned about the music but do it to the point that I can't be run and if I am, I have a great "back-up". A lot of umpires that hated me as an announcer, respected me because I am an umpire and listened to complaints and question. Those are the ones that we need more of and associations need to urge that "friendly official".

Oh, puleez...

Sounds to me like there's more than one "big head" at work here. Dial down the arrogance, the one-upmanship, and the finger pointing, and maybe your situations will improve.

Sorry to sound defensive, but it can't be all the officials' fault, here.

I am with Juulie on this one. First off, I really do not know what ego has to do with any of this. Maybe he is not that good, but we are talking about the side of an individual that was not officiating, but announcing. :eek: I might take this post half seriously if we had his side.

If you were that good of an official, why are you announcing the game. Hell, I can do that. :rolleyes:

Peace

WHAT HE SAID

The official does have a right to throw out the scorekeeper and the timer since he is the one according to the rule book that appoints those people to start the game. They are part of the crew. The fans should be delt with by game management. If the official wants them tossed then game management is to escort them from the building. I have seen it done and the game manager mumbled about it the whole night. You cannot keep the fans quiet. They paid their two bucks there entitled to their two buck opinion. Fans evaluating officials? ha!!!! For the most part they don't know a good one from a bad one since they have never been on the floor and don't know what it takes. They can rate an official on appearance, decisivness and presence. There are a lot of intangibles that a fan cannot evaluate an official. Most fans don't know what a legal guarding position is and don't watch the defense so they have no idea of that was a block or a charge that just happened. They can judge on whether a call was made and how sure the official was on the call.

When I am on the floor I am god. I am the judge as to how legal the actions are of all who participate. That is why I get paid the big bucks to where zebra stripes. However, my goal is to be like God and be fair and let justice prevail.

Tim -- great thought!!

Good grief...have you ever stopped to think that maybe - just maybe - the reason we have a shortage of officials is because of people like you in the first place?? What in the heck did you do to cause all of these officials to respond to you in the ways you described?? I believe that the school where you work should be a little more concerned about the "friendly atmosphere" they can generate for officials to work in, and you need to try shutting up every now and then at games!

This is something to be truly proud of! You are using the knowledge gained by being an official to bait, ridicule, and intimidate other officials.

If I was working any type of game where you as the announcer pulled any of this crap, and I knew that you were an official also, a report would be filed to your association.

Substitute the words "players" or "coaches" for the word "officials" and you'd be much closer to reality.

Wow. If you're getting your rules knowledge from Vitale, you have a long way to go . . . .



You also have the right to be wrong . . . . (2-8-1, Note)

Blubbering ding-a-ling
 

Sport Announcing idiot.

Your self acclaimed credentials don't hold water with me.

Fans don't know the rules and would make very poor officials - they are primarily interested in their child or their team... not impartiality. You may have a good report with fans simply because you "listen" to them. Most of us listen to knowledgeable people - not raving fans or dorky self-proclaimed expert, sport announcers.

I doubt your officiating career will go to far. I also doubt your announcing carreer will go to far if you continue to choose crossing the officials.

I feel like tossing you right now.

Ooohhh, I saw you banal post on the baseball forum also. So your PA personality isn't limited to just basketball games.

Good luck in life! Happy Trails.

As a group, fans usually exhibit the characteristics: ignorance of the rules, highly emotional partisanship, and delight in antagonising the officials. I think that you should stick to this group and stop pretending that you are a basketball referee.

Wow-when I originally read this I thought it was a joke by one of the guys here on the board. After checking out your website I can see that you are serious. A couple of questions -As a PA announcer why would you need to know what you can get away with?

What could you possibly do stupid enough to get flipped off my a Major league ump? And what's wrong with an NCAA ref giving you the cut it out sign? If you are going too far shouldn't they tell you to cut it out? Why on earth would an announcer need a backup?

Do you really think you know the rules? I bet if you and your buddy Dickie V got together and took a rules test together you would still fail. And the fans? whatever--- I know you dont believe me but just try it once. go to http://www.psboa.org/tests.html and try an old test--no cheating.

[Edited by oc on Oct 14th, 2003 at 07:03 PM]

You'reThe Reason Officials Get A Bad Name
 

You undermine the ideals and integrity of all officials with your comments and attitude. First, if you actually are an official then you know you don't act as a "tattle tale" with the fan's and coach's around you with regard to the officiating. Secondly as an announcer you are hired by someone whether it be team or tounament oriented which means you have an agenda to please these people and are not impartial as the officials on the floor are. Thirdly with regard to your statements about ejection of fans and techincal fouls, please if you can take a look at this year's NCAA rule book (Rule 10 Sect. 5 & 6 - Pgs. 129-131) where for a page and half it talks about Indirect Technical Fouls For Unsporting Conduct By Followers. And for you and the rest of your fan followers please pay close attention to Article 4 which reads "Direspectfully addressing an official, which includes the use of profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene". You are joke and are part of the problem for which this rule has been created!

[Edited by Ref42 on Oct 14th, 2003 at 11:04 AM]

Funny you say this. You know, I've heard a lot of people say they can announce. And it's true, anyone can announce. Just like anyone can officiate. But it takes a certain person to do it WELL, to do it RIGHT.

I'm not saying I'm the best official out there, far from it. What I am saying and really asking, is why are the same officials making the same bad calls every year? Then complaining they don't get different results. It's frustrating to hear "If I call everything, then everyone would've fouled out by the end of the first half," and have the referee believe it.

"If you call the first foul, the resulting fouls wont occur," Dick Vitale.

It's true. Plus, a player with no fouls plays differently than if he has three or four.

But this is part of the problem that's going on and until it's realized, it's going to continue. It is easily possible to go through a season without having any fights in high school games. When there was a fight at a game in Northern Virginia, the first question among fans wasn't "Who started it", it was "Who were the officials". When we found out, we understood why it happened.

I am a big proponent of high school and women's basketball and want to see it succeed. The problem is, some officials (and I don't even know if they are on the board) don't take those games seriously and let it get out of hand. It's not good for anyone when that happens.

When you are ready to solve the problem, as opposed to just ragging at anyone who will let you type on their board, I suggest you call the assignor of the refs you don't like, and ask him or her some neutral, information-only questions. Don't argue with the answers, just think about them.

Then go home and ask what YOU could do to help solve the problem. maybe if refs weren't getting abused by everyone in the gym, they might get out of their God-complex and call things a little more loosely. No, wait, you want refs to call tighter...

except that you "don't call anything except assault..." and that's the way everyone ought to do it...

oh, I see, that applies to boys frat ball, but you care more about girls ball? college women, does that mean, or high school?

No, you said fights are what upsets you most, so that's boys, is that high school? Or frat boys?

Okay, S.A., answer this one: Which concern are you really concerned about? I'm kinda lost...

Contact does not equal foul. A foul implies a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

Funny how in this thread you want all "fouls" called yet in another thread say that technical fouls are never necessary short of actual assault.

Your signature is insulting to good officials. Good officials know when they should remain in the background and know when they need to be noticed. There are times when good officials need to step up and take care of business. Those officials are noticed, are promoted, and do well in the big games.

Rich

I guess.
 

That is the point. It is easy to sit in the stands and say to officials what they should do, and you admittedly have not been in the fire and accomplished what many of us have to even question and be taken seriously. Doing a rec. game is not at all like doing a HS or college game with hundreds or thousands of fans on your back about every thing you do or not do.


Well it shows the lack of your knowledge of the game. Most fans and commentators do not even know what a foul or penalty is, but then they want to Monday Morning Quarterback (sorry it is football season for me) and tell us what we should do. Better yet, you have folks like yourself that have never been in the fire to even understand what a bad call or a good call is. What you have officiated or officiate is not of the level that these officials that you want to be critical of. One of the reasons you are getting hammered by the brass here.

Well I am a Dick Vitale fan on his enthusiam about the game and his knowledge about players and coaches. I even give him some credit for his X and O comments. But Vitale, like many other commentators do not have a clue what a foul is. Better yet, if they allowed us to look at the game from the same place, then that would be the norm. But officials are in the much better position and we do not call the game from a fixed position. We actually are a few feet from most calls and understand the rules. Considering I hear things from commentators like "moving screens" and "his feet were not set the call should have been a block." Neither of these comments are based on any rule, but I hear them every game at least once when the "all knowing announcers" educate the public about rules that do not even exsist.


Well fortunately I have never had a basketball game that had a fight (at least a big one). But if you are that ignorant to think that fights happen based on what fouls are called and not called, you have a lot to learn about sports. Sometimes a rivalry has more to do with the game, but the fact that players and coaches know each other personally and do not like each other off that court or out of that arena. If you think a fight happens just because of a foul that does not take place, you need to offficiate some more. I have heard of fights that had racial overtones, cultural overtones and sometimes dating overtones. I have known fights that started because players were sleeping with the same girl. The officials might not even know of that history, but just like an uneducated fan, you make everything about the officials. I think the coaches and players help set a tone. Afterall this is just a game and if you cannot put that in perspective, then no wonder we have the problems we have.


Did it ever occur to you the players and coaches let the game get out of hand. If I call 40 fouls in a half on that does not necessarily change the tone if the players and coaches do not adjust. I have been in the double bonus for both teams and the coaches complain we called too many fouls. So we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Again stick to what you know and I will stick to what I know. I personally have no desire to be an announcer. Maybe because it is clear that I would not continue to churn the ignorance of the game that individuals like yourself do on a regular basis. But then again, you officiate under the big lights doing the state recognized rec. league. I am sure your fellow officials are knocking down the doors to get those games. :rolleyes:

Peace

Since you are talking about officiating in northern VA, here is an open challenge to you. I am a member of Cardinal Basketball Officials Association -- the premier association in northern VA. Come join our association. We have excellent officials, good officials, bad officials, and officials that seem to be like you -- ready to criticize but not ready to learn.

I'll tell you about officiating like my wife told me years ago: PUT UP, OR SHUT UP! That's how I started officiating. The ball is in your court.