Slow Boat To China ...
 

Would it be too much to ask to put something in the title that is relevant to officiating?

The move would NOT be legal in HS or NCAA because the traveling rule is different.

Stayin' Alive (The Bee Gees, 1977) ...
 

Curiosity killed the cat, but it didn't kill Raymond.

Seriously. I forgot that a thread title is much more important than a post title (that many seldom read). Thread titles are on the Forum for many days. Sorry.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

That's what I thought, but being unfamiliar with NBA travel rules, I needed a confirmation.

You always say you write stuff for the benefit of new officials. How would any new official know what they are supposed to be learning about when you make a post with no indication about the subject? Then you don't post any relevant information as to how this article relates to HS rules or interpretations.

The article tells you it's legal in the NBA. You didn't know whether or not the action is legal in NFHS?

Entertainment Value ...
 

I was sure that it was illegal for NFHS, just wanted to confirm the "entertainment value" rule set of the NBA.

A Zero ...
 

That's what my seventh grade English/Social Studies teacher, Mr. Britton, used to say whenever we answered a question incorrectly.

Just wanted to spark a discussion among the curious. I obviously failed miserably.

Confirmed by whom? We have an NBA ref in our forum? Wasn't that question answered by an NBA entity in the article YOU posted?

If your goal is really to engage newer officials into understanding the rules, then post the rule or something related to the rule. If I were a newer official, I would be discouraged by having to navigate through a whole bunch of unnecessary minutiae.

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Rules Sets ...
 

We have a few Forum members who are familiar with the differences between NBA, WNBA, FIBA, NCAA-M, NCAA-W, and NFHS rules, I am not one of them, and seek explanations from those that know and possibly understand the differences.

Obviously A Failure ...
 

My goal, obviously a failure, was to start a discussion regarding NBA travel rules compared to NFHS travel rules to those who know the differences, which would probably not be aimed at just new officials, but all officials.

Harden's move being legal, or illegal, made quite a splash on the interent's social media, so I figured it would make the same splash here on the Forum, and again, I was wrong.

I can tell you why this move is illegal by NFHS rules, but I can't even begin to tell you why its legal by NBA rules. bob jenkins confirmed it's NBA legal, maybe someone else can tell us why it's legal. Something about two steps?

I am also confused completely by the title or what is the goal of the posting of this. NBA rules are different than amateur rules. Similar to the NFL compared to the NF or NCAA. Not sure why people get up in arms about this difference. But it would help if we actually knew what the rule was that applied either in the title or what we are to comment about. But that it sometimes is too much to ask of some.

Peace

No, I didn't. I merely said it's illegal in FED and NCAA. And, that the NBA travel rule is different.

No comment on whether that "difference" would make it legal in NBA -- but since the NBA posted IN THE VERY SAME ARTICLE that it was legal, I believe them.

A Miserable Failure ...
 

I've already fallen on my sword for not realizing the important difference between thread title and a post title. I seldom start a thread, I usually reply to the threads of others. I doubt that many read my post titles.

In followup posts, I've made my (failed) goal very clear.

Again, I don't know the NBA rule, so I couldn't include it I any of my posts. I could probably find it on the internet, but I figured (maybe incorrectly) that a few Forum members (with a wealth of knowledge) with a passing interest in NBA rules could provide that information.

Always Apologize To bob ...
 

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I also believe them, I just wanted to find out why it's legal. Two steps?

Didn't the article mention something about "2 steps"?

Are you trying to confuse our more inexperienced officials by having them focus on NBA rules instead of what makes this illegal at the NFHS level?

Number Of Steps, No Way ...
 

Yes, so what about two steps? That's it, that's the whole rule? Curious minds may want to know. Human curiosity in humans has been scientifically correlated to human intelligence.

I am not the first Forum member to mention rules sets other than NFHS, nor will I be the last. I'm sure that some inexperienced officials watch NBA games, with announcers accurately, or inaccurately, describing NBA rules.

But to be on the safe side, for inexperienced officials (especially now when many associations hold their new officials training sessions), here's a short version of NFHS traveling rules:

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass, or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up, or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his, or her, back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped, or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes, and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble

Inexperienced officials please note that there is not a single reference in the NFHS travel rule to the number of steps taken. Not one and a half. Not two. Don't count. Identify the pivot foot. Keep your eye on the pivot foot and understand the legal limitations of moving the pivot foot.

The NCAA may be the same (I'm not an NCAA official). FIBA may, or may not, be the same (probably not the same, I saw some odd called, and uncalled, travels when my daughter played in Spain). The NBA is different.

Harden's move would be illegal in a NFHS game because he lifted is pivot foot and put it back on the floor before he released the shot. Why legal in the NBA? Not sure, but it has something to do with two steps.

With the exception of fully explaining the NBA travel rule, I have now fulfilled one of my goals from this thread, noting the differences between the two rule sets.

That's all that is important, and could have saved a few unnecessary posts if stated in your initial post.


You always mention that you don't work NCAA. Hopefully folks who work NCAA know the rule in regards to lifting and replacing the pivot foot (it the same as the NFHS rule). Maybe that's why folks aren't discussing this play here in the forum, because it is an obvious travel for the rule sets all the forum members work (save maybe the FIBA officials). Inquiring minds don't want to know why it's not a travel in the NBA, YOU want to know. And instead of just simply asking (or looking it up on the internet), you throw all this other stuff at us. Give folks credit in that they will ask on their own if they need/want to know something about a rule outside of their normal rule set.

Dollars To Donuts ...
 

I wouldn't bet my house, but I would bet a fairly large amount of money that this won't be the last Forum post that mentions NBA rules.

Well, maybe not a fairly large amount of money. I just retired from my day job as a chemist and I'm on a "fixed income" now.

I'll bet a buck.

Baby needs a new pair of shoes.

In the NBA - Not a travel
In the NCAA - Travel
In NFHS - Travel
In FiBA - Not a travel

At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps".

NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule because it:
A) Increases opportunity for dynamic plays
B) Decreases the stress and risk for injury associated with quicker/harder stops for high level athletes moving and very high rates.

Zero Step ...
 

Thanks Pantherdreams. That's exactly what I was looking for (granted, in a roundabout way).

Also explains the odd travel no calls that I observed when my daughter played in a youth tournament in Spain.

Officials know it is illegal for NFHS/NCAA/FIBA/"X" organization because they have seen/read the rule. If you want to know why it is legal in the NBA, just go read the rule. The NBA rules are online in many places.

Many people talk about the "possible" travel portion of the play. Many think it should be traveling but not one person, not even on this forum, mentioned the "possible" palming/carrying violations. I counted 2 of them. On the forum some say it would be traveling but no one said it would be palming/carrying, or even "traveling" to some, while he was dribbling.

It Was A Dark And Stormy Night ...
 

Classic BM, just classic.

[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;1025262]At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps".

NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule because it:
A) Increases opportunity for dynamic plays
B) Decreases the stress and risk for injury associated with quicker/harder stops for high level athletes moving and very high rOTE]

FWIW, my 2 resident NBA rules practitioners quickly referenced the "zero" step and would not have a whistle for travelling on this play.

They confirmed the foot movements involved in this play warrant a whistle in HS game.

I think the NBA rule is worded differently, but with same result. Might be wrong, but if so, someone explain specifically what it allows that NCAA rules don't?

The NBA description of this rule is consistent with what I see, it isn't a travel in lower levels either if you give benefit of the doubt on when the gather happens here. he's taking the ball from his left hand to his right as he's in the air, and gathers while in the air, then lands once with each foot. And that's the NBA's interpretation. How would that be a travel at lower levels? Remember, the gather should be, and is in practical terms in NCAA, a loose interpretation whether it is a spin move, layup, Euro step, or this move. They want the gather at higher levels to be judged loosely.

He gathers with his right foot on the ground and his left foot in the air, making his right foot the pivot foot. He puts his right foot back down before shooting.

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Of course, there is no gather defined, but only the ball coming to rest in ONE or both hands. The pivot foot is established when the ball is in his left hand, not when or after he shifts it to his right. If that were not the case, a player could continually shift the ball back and forth and never have a pivot foot.

[QUOTE=justacoach;1025315]Ask your 2 resident NBA rules practitioners about having the hand under the ball and rolling the hand entirely to the top of the ball when dribbling, lol.

where in the nba rules is there a difference in carrying the ball? maybe there is, but I doubt it.

he takes the ball behind the back in a manner that would be a dribble had it gone to the ground. the fact that he interrupts its path by catching it in the right means the key time is when it is caught in the right hand, not what happens to it in the left, in my mind.

In any event, the NBA is on record as saying it's legal, and I'll bet there is no difference between the carrying rules in the 2 leagues. correct me if I'm wrong.

I am not disagreeing with the NBA's rule and how it was applied but...

This is like saying someone can stand there and toss, in an obviously controlled fashion, the ball from hand to hand repeatedly and move their pivot foot. Instead of tossing it from side to side repeatedly in front of him, he did it once in back. Some day the bigs are going to realize that this meneuver is legal and incorporate it into their low-post game. Now, a few guards do it. Some day, everyone will be doing it and it will look sooooooo weird. It just takes time because players' games are developed under the NFHS/NCAA rule sets, not the NBA.

I don't agree, only the first is arguably the same motion as a behind the back dribble, and when it is caught in the other hand it's not a dribble. apparently that is the NBA interpretation as well. I don't believe there is a different interpretation, or at least wording, at the college level, but perhaps there is. I doubt it.

The NBA specifically said this was legal because of the zero step interp, and not because of some "carry" interp.

[QUOTE=bucky;1025325]As highly trained professionals, they disdainfully ignore any chatter from the peanut gallery. They received their early instruction from their dad.

FWIW, the highly trained professional who was present on the court during this action is a colleague of theirs. His professional judgement is, likewise, beyond reproach.

He also received extensive early training and continuing tutelage from his dad.

Maybe you'd like to take it up with his dad, Joe DeRosa.

Any other questions?

If it doesn't go to the ground, it was never a dribble to start. There is a case play that says a player that tosses the ball into the air and move and catches it has traveled. This is the same. The direction of the toss doesn't matter.

wrong , they said that he gathered and THEN took 2 steps. same as NCAA rule as far as I know

[QUOTE=justacoach;1025332]Sure, why was he watching neither the ball handler nor defender at the beginning of the clip? Why are NBA refs wearing such tight shirts? Why was he briefly straightlined with the Harden and the ball? Why do some refs signal a made 3 with 2 arms up and others only one? How does it feel to be a national champion? Why do NBA referees change shirt designs so often? Do NBA refs actually look/find a pivot foot when someone holds the ball? Why did you father stop officiating NBA but continue at other levels? There are too many to list in one post?

It isn't the judgement being questioned rather the logic in applying one rule and possibly not another. The NBA explained the non-travel call. If only they explained many others. Won't happen because no one likes to be questioned. That would mean transparency, lol.

That is not quite the rule. If a player "gathers" with a foot on the floor (and the other off the floor), then that foot is the pivot. They cannot lift and bring that foot back to the floor without violating the traveling rule. That is the same rule in both NF and NCAA.

Peace

Maybe you missed it but there were 2 dads and 3 different officials referenced in my reply.

I cannot speak for any of the 3rd parties involved but, as for myself, I would dissuade you from concerning yourself with advanced issues that are well beyond your current level of training, experience, philosophy, sophistication and salary level.

Seems you have a way to go until you master the requisite skills and nuance pertinent to your current work environment.

If you would like to experience some transparency, have a look at the daily report at

2017-18 NBA Officiating Last Two Minute Reports | NBA Official

You may be able to begin to glean the answers to your impertinent questions.

You don't know the NCAA rule then.

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[QUOTE=bucky;1025335]Joe Borgia has weekly show during the season explaining the rules, so I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

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Yes I agree. They, like the NCAA , want to be liberal with when the gather is completed, and like we see here, their interpretation is that the gather is completed with both feet off the ground, then he comes down 1 2, voila, not a travel.

I think they try to make the travel more understandable with their change in the verbiage, but I don't see a difference in what a travel is. maybe someone out there can show me I'm wrong, and I might be. I am confident this 'gather' issue is seen in a lot of potential travel situations, even as simple as many layups, if you look closely. All high levels they want that called very loosely, from what I've seen, and I agree with that philosophy.

If you gather in the air, then come down with one foot, then the other foot, it's not a travel at either level. Maybe you thought I meant the gather took place with a foot on the floor, and then a one and a two. That would be a travel because the pivot foot returned, but any level worth talking about wants that gather given the benefit of the doubt.

In the NBA, the gather step is not the pivot. A player picking up his dribble with his right foot on the floor, the RF is the gather step (or zero step) and then he has two more steps (LF RF) to shoot or pass. If he comes to stop, the LF will be his pivot foot.

The multiple NCAA clinics I've attended this year nobody has told us to be liberal with the gather. Nobody has told us anything in regards to gather. We were just told to call travels if they occur. I have never once in my 10 years as an NCAA official had any clinic or clinician tell us to be liberal with the gather. It has never been discussed.

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Interesting, do you have an online link to this language? I don't find zero step on the NBA rulebook online.