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-   -   NFHS Preseason Guide 2018 -- a problem (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104043-nfhs-preseason-guide-2018-problem.html)

Nevadaref Wed Sep 26, 2018 04:27am

NFHS Preseason Guide 2018 -- a problem
 
Seems that someone jumped the gun in an article which appears in the 2018 preseason guide and this has resulted in a problem. I believe that one of the rule changes under consideration, but ultimately rejected this past off-season was to make coaches accountable for illegal equipment by creating a penalty of a technical foul charged to the head coach should a player be found to be wearing an illegal item.
Well, here is what has been printed in the preseason guide:
"Coaches shall not allow players to wear illegal equipment or apparel. Should a team member participate while wearing illegal equipment or apparel, the penalty is a technical foul charged to the head coach as described in Rule 10-6-3 Pen. upon discovery."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Illegal equipment and apparel are not the same as an illegal uniform and don't result in the same penalty.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Sep 28, 2018 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1024891)
Seems that someone jumped the gun in an article which appears in the 2018 preseason guide and this has resulted in a problem. I believe that one of the rule changes under consideration, but ultimately rejected this past off-season was to make coaches accountable for illegal equipment by creating a penalty of a technical foul charged to the head coach should a player be found to be wearing an illegal item.
Well, here is what has been printed in the preseason guide:
"Coaches shall not allow players to wear illegal equipment or apparel. Should a team member participate while wearing illegal equipment or apparel, the penalty is a technical foul charged to the head coach as described in Rule 10-6-3 Pen. upon discovery."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Illegal equipment and apparel are not the same as an illegal uniform and don't result in the same penalty.



Good catch Nevada.

MTD, Sr.

The_Rookie Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1024891)
Seems that someone jumped the gun in an article which appears in the 2018 preseason guide and this has resulted in a problem. I believe that one of the rule changes under consideration, but ultimately rejected this past off-season was to make coaches accountable for illegal equipment by creating a penalty of a technical foul charged to the head coach should a player be found to be wearing an illegal item.
Well, here is what has been printed in the preseason guide:
"Coaches shall not allow players to wear illegal equipment or apparel. Should a team member participate while wearing illegal equipment or apparel, the penalty is a technical foul charged to the head coach as described in Rule 10-6-3 Pen. upon discovery."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Illegal equipment and apparel are not the same as an illegal uniform and don't result in the same penalty.

As always all over it my man!

BillyMac Sun Sep 30, 2018 07:00pm

Illegal Apparel ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1024891)
I believe that one of the rule changes under consideration, but ultimately rejected this past off-season was to make coaches accountable for illegal equipment by creating a penalty of a technical foul charged to the head coach should a player be found to be wearing an illegal item.

As Nevadaref stated, it was a proposed rule change, but one that was not, obviously, accepted by the committee.

It was proposed by Gene Menees of Hermitage, Tennessee.

The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform or illegal apparel.

Penalty – Direct technical foul charged to the head coach. Rule 10, Section 6, Article 4: The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform or illegal apparel.

Rationale: It makes the rule easier to understand by officials, coaches & players. We are spending more time discussing what is legal & illegal with uniforms & apparel than we are spending with hand checking, post-play, etc. It will also put more responsibility on coaches to make sure their players are dressed legally.

referee99 Wed Oct 03, 2018 09:11am

The can of worms has been opened.
 
The publication of this erroneous information will be felt, unfortunately, for a while.

Nevadaref Wed Oct 03, 2018 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 1025034)
The publication of this erroneous information will be felt, unfortunately, for a while.

A mitigating factor is that not all associations provide the NFHS preseason guide. I know that the CA chapter for which I officiate does not.

BillyMac Wed Oct 03, 2018 05:11pm

I Heard It Through the Grapevine (Marvin Gaye, 1968) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 1025034)
The publication of this erroneous information will be felt, unfortunately, for a while.

Unfortunately? Maybe some good will come from this. Coaches may hear about it "through the grapevine" and actually do their job.

Camron Rust Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 1025034)
The publication of this erroneous information will be felt, unfortunately, for a while.

Not the first time....backcourt violation anyone?

Freddy Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:30pm

Around here, the NFHS Preseason Guide is less known than even the NFHS Interpretations. Which, by the way, are typically the last annual release by the NFHS to clean up all the preceding errors that have been made in the preseason publications and documents up to that point.
In other words, we can expect an Interpretation to correct the error in the Preseason Guide.
My guess.

BillyMac Thu Oct 04, 2018 06:09am

NFHS Preseason Guide ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1025059)
A mitigating factor is that not all associations provide the NFHS preseason guide. I know that the CA chapter for which I officiate does not.

The NFHS Preseason Guide is not provided to us here in my little corner of Connecticut (I never even heard about it until this thread).

I'm on a new committee this season and I will be expected to write an article on new rules for area newspapers. It sounds like the guide can be a good resource for me to base my article on.

Can I find this guide online? If so, where? If not, can someone post it on the Forum? If not, can someone email it to me, send me a private message and I'll reply with my real email address.

referee99 Thu Oct 04, 2018 08:22am

I think that is the point.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1025060)
Unfortunately? Maybe some good will come from this. Coaches may hear about it "through the grapevine" and actually do their job.

It appears to me that NFHS wants coaches to embrace a role in the policing of their teams instead of leaving it up to the officials.

referee99 Thu Oct 04, 2018 08:38am

I think this is it.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1025064)
The NFHS Preseason Guide is not provided to us here in my little corner of Connecticut (I never even heard about it until this thread).

I'm on a new committee this season and I will be expected to write an article on new rules for area newspapers. It sounds like the guide can be a good resource for me to base my article on.

Can I find this guide online? If so, where? If not, can someone post it on the Forum? If not, can someone email it to me, send me a private message and I'll reply with my real email address.

I am assuming this powerpoint presentation is what we are referring to:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m7_...ew?usp=sharing

Realize I'm making an assumption, as it is not labeled as such and has been co-branded by CBOA.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 04, 2018 08:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 1025067)
I am assuming this powerpoint presentation is what we are referring to:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m7_...ew?usp=sharing

Realize I'm making an assumption, as it is not labeled as such and has been co-branded by CBOA.

No. This is (or was before the CBOA additions) a powerpoint sent by NFHS to the states to be used in rules presentations to officials and coaches.

There is also a 12-14 page newsletter sent out. It's co-written by RefMag and mailed to officials in some states -- we get it here every year. I think they were sent by the state last Friday, so we should begetting them here soon.

BillyMac Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:34am

PowerPoint, Newsletter ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 1025067)
I am assuming this powerpoint presentation is what we are referring to:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m7_...ew?usp=sharing

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1025068)
No. This is (or was before the CBOA additions) a powerpoint sent by NFHS to the states to be used in rules presentations to officials and coaches. There is also a 12-14 page newsletter sent out. It's co-written by RefMag and mailed to officials in some states -- we get it here every year. I think they were sent by the state last Friday, so we should begetting them here soon.

Thanks guys.

BillyMac Thu Oct 04, 2018 01:12pm

Concussion ...
 
From the NFHS PowerPoint 2018:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1972/...877213f6_m.jpg

Here in Connecticut, we've been told to never use the term "concussion" when discussing an injury with a coach. Never, ever. Verboten.

Rather: "Coach. I think that 15 got hit in the head. She looks like he's dizzy. You may want to check her."

bob jenkins Thu Oct 04, 2018 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1025071)
From the NFHS PowerPoint 2018:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1972/...877213f6_m.jpg

Here in Connecticut, we've been told to never use the term "concussion" when discussing an injury with a coach. Never, ever. Verboten.

Rather: "Coach. I think that 15 got hit in the head. She looks like he's dizzy. You may want to check her."

SIGNS OF A concussion < > HAS A concussion.

And, I wouldn't say "MAY want to check her" -- if you are sending the player out, just send the player out with the reason; if it's only a "may" then don't say anything

BillyMac Thu Oct 04, 2018 02:38pm

We're Certainly Not What You Would Call Experts ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1025073)
SIGNS OF A concussion < > HAS A concussion.
And, I wouldn't say "MAY want to check her" -- if you are sending the player out, just send the player out with the reason; if it's only a "may" then don't say anything

By Connecticut State law, officials don't send players out for concussion like symptoms, it's the responsibility of coaches, or qualified medical professionals, to do such.

The Connecticut State Legislature worked closely our state interscholastic sports governing body to come up laws regarding interscholastic sports related concussions.

All interscholastic sports coaches, all levels, head coaches, assistants, etc., have to pass a concussion protocol class (to be renewed periodically). The decision to remove a player from a game is solely in their hands (absent a qualified medical professorial (trainer, doctor, nurse, etc.)).

That official's branch of the state interscholastic sports governing body had a seat at the table (we didn't wear our striped shirts) when this law was first proposed. The law relieves officials from most responsibilities regarding removing a player from a game for concussion like symptoms (not for blood, that's still on us).

Absent a qualified medical professorial, it's totally on the coaches, all of whom have been properly trained in concussion protocol, not the officials, to remove a possibly concussed player from a contest.

It's the State law.

Officials don't receive the same (required) professional classroom instruction that the coaches receive.

That being said, Connecticut officials have been instructed to never use the term "concussion" in describing an injury to a coach. We can describe the symptoms that we observe, i.e., dizziness, poor balance, appears dazed, or stunned, etc., or how the actual injury occurred, i.e., took an elbow to the head, head hit floor, etc., but we can't use the term "concussion".

Again, the usual caveat, "When in a State that's not Connecticut ...".

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.O...=0&w=288&h=164

Chung, chung.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Oct 04, 2018 08:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1025074)
By Connecticut State law, officials don't send players out for concussion like symptoms, it's the responsibility of coaches, or qualified medical professionals, to do such.

The Connecticut State Legislature worked closely our state interscholastic sports governing body to come up laws regarding interscholastic sports related concussions.

All interscholastic sports coaches, all levels, head coaches, assistants, etc., have to pass a yearly concussion protocol class. The decision to remove a player from a game is solely in their hands (absent a qualified medical professorial (trainer, doctor, nurse, etc.)).

That official's branch of the state interscholastic sports governing body had a seat at the table (we didn't wear our striped shirts) when this law was first proposed. The law relieves officials from most responsibilities regarding removing a player from a game for concussion like symptoms (not for blood, that's still on us).

Absent a qualified medical professorial, it's totally on the coaches, all of whom have been properly trained in concussion protocol, not the officials, to remove a possibly concussed player from a contest.

It's the State law.

Officials don't receive the same (required) professional classroom instruction that the coaches receive.

That being said, Connecticut officials have been instructed to never use the term "concussion" in describing an injury to a coach. We can describe the symptoms that we observe, i.e., dizziness, poor balance, appears dazed, or stunned, etc., or how the actual injury occurred, i.e., took an elbow to the head, head hit floor, etc., but we can't use the term "concussion".

Again, the usual caveat, "When in a State that's not Connecticut ...".

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.O...=0&w=288&h=164

Chung, chung.



I thought it was: Doink! Doink! :p

MTD, Sr.

Freddy Tue Oct 09, 2018 09:35pm

Another . . .
 
. . . inaccurate statement on p.11:
"Allowing a coach to move within the new box between the 28-foot mark and the endline provides a coach more access to his or her players."
Problem is -- and you can determine the ultimate significance of this -- that statement holds true for floors that are 84' or longer, as rule 1-13-2 states.However, floors less than that, according to Casebook 1.13.2C, must measure 14' from the division line, then extend the box to the endline. Shorter floors mean shorter coaching boxes. All floors keep coaches from legally wandering closer than 14' from the division line and, presumably, keep them from getting in front of the table while coaching.
Valid point?

Camron Rust Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1025151)
. . . inaccurate statement on p.11:
"Allowing a coach to move within the new box between the 28-foot mark and the endline provides a coach more access to his or her players."
Problem is -- and you can determine the ultimate significance of this -- that statement holds true for floors that are 84' or longer, as rule 1-13-2 states.However, floors less than that, according to Casebook 1.13.2C, must measure 14' from the division line, then extend the box to the endline. Shorter floors mean shorter coaching boxes. All floors keep coaches from legally wandering closer than 14' from the division line and, presumably, keep them from getting in front of the table while coaching.
Valid point?

Not inaccurate. I just don't think they really intended to cover oddball floors. And even so, it still allows more access to the players vs. the old coaching box size unless the court is less than 56 feet or so (and I've never seen one that short). A 74' court would still allow for a 23' coaching box...which is still substantially larger than a 14 foot box.

BillyMac Wed Oct 10, 2018 06:15am

You've Come A Long Way Baby ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1025156)
Not inaccurate. I just don't think they really intended to cover oddball floors. And even so, it still allows more access to the players vs. the old coaching box size unless the court is less than 56 feet or so (and I've never seen one that short). A 74' court would still allow for a 23' coaching box...which is still substantially larger than a 14 foot box.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that when the coaching box was first introduced, it was only six feet long. Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

Camron Rust Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1025157)
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that when the coaching box was first introduced, it was only six feet long. Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

You are correct.

BillyMac Wed Oct 10, 2018 02:09pm

Thanks Camron Rust ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1025157)
Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1025165)
You are correct.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Why are you posting under Camron Rust's username?

Camron Rust Wed Oct 10, 2018 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1025175)
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Why are you posting under Camron Rust's username?

Maybe I've been posting under MTD's username all these years! Oh, wait, no that can't be me. I don't have the rulebooks from from 1776.

BillyMac Wed Oct 10, 2018 03:10pm

Ancient Times © Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., 2018 ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1025179)
Maybe I've been posting under MTD's username all these years! Oh, wait, no that can't be me. I don't have the rulebooks from from 1776.

http://www.timesbulletin.com/Images/Images/107869.jpg

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. is on the far right, in the yellow vest.

Quite dashing, isn't he?

The door on the right leads to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s attic library.

The NFHS Rules Committee was much larger back then and committee members had to wear powdered wigs.

WhistlesAndStripes Fri Oct 12, 2018 08:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1024891)
Seems that someone jumped the gun in an article which appears in the 2018 preseason guide and this has resulted in a problem. I believe that one of the rule changes under consideration, but ultimately rejected this past off-season was to make coaches accountable for illegal equipment by creating a penalty of a technical foul charged to the head coach should a player be found to be wearing an illegal item.
Well, here is what has been printed in the preseason guide:
"Coaches shall not allow players to wear illegal equipment or apparel. Should a team member participate while wearing illegal equipment or apparel, the penalty is a technical foul charged to the head coach as described in Rule 10-6-3 Pen. upon discovery."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Illegal equipment and apparel are not the same as an illegal uniform and don't result in the same penalty.

WhAt page of the guide is this on?? I did 2 quick glances through all 16 pages and couldn’t find it.

Nevadaref Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:16pm

Page 8, in the upper left corner below PlayPic H.

bob jenkins Sun Oct 14, 2018 09:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1024891)
Seems that someone jumped the gun in an article which appears in the 2018 preseason guide and this has resulted in a problem. I believe that one of the rule changes under consideration, but ultimately rejected this past off-season was to make coaches accountable for illegal equipment by creating a penalty of a technical foul charged to the head coach should a player be found to be wearing an illegal item.
Well, here is what has been printed in the preseason guide:
"Coaches shall not allow players to wear illegal equipment or apparel. Should a team member participate while wearing illegal equipment or apparel, the penalty is a technical foul charged to the head coach as described in Rule 10-6-3 Pen. upon discovery."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Illegal equipment and apparel are not the same as an illegal uniform and don't result in the same penalty.

The same (or essentially similar) slide / concept of a T is in the powerpoint sent out to the states.

I hope they get this clarified.

AremRed Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1024891)
"Coaches shall not allow players to wear illegal equipment or apparel. Should a team member participate while wearing illegal equipment or apparel, the penalty is a technical foul charged to the head coach as described in Rule 10-6-3 Pen. upon discovery."

Not only is this wrong, it's also the wrong rule reference. 10-6-3 concerns playing a player after that player has been disqualified.

10-6-4 is closer to what they wrote, it concerns a technical foul charged to the head coach for illegal UNIFORMS, not illegal equipment or illegal apparel like they posit here.

Freddy Wed Oct 17, 2018 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1025321)
The same (or essentially similar) slide / concept of a T is in the powerpoint sent out to the states.

I hope they get this clarified.

I was informed by one our training brethren in Hawaii that the NFHS sent out corrections to that erroneous part of their PowerPoint. Will attach it as soon as I can get it downloaded.

Freddy Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1025359)
Not only is this wrong, it's also the wrong rule reference. 10-6-3 concerns playing a player after that player has been disqualified.

10-6-4 is closer to what they wrote, it concerns a technical foul charged to the head coach for illegal UNIFORMS, not illegal equipment or illegal apparel like they posit here.

AremRed,
I just did the online rules meeting and was shocked that they allowed that seemingly erroneous NFHS PowerPoint slide, attached, to remain in the presentation, designating a direct technical on the coach for any apparel infraction. Do you have any connections from whom you can confirm whether or not they actually want us to do and teach that or if it's the obvious error that we suspect it is which they'll be correcting with a followup dispatch of some sort? I've gotta teach this rule next week.

griblets Mon Oct 22, 2018 08:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1024891)
Seems that someone jumped the gun in an article which appears in the 2018 preseason guide and this has resulted in a problem. I believe that one of the rule changes under consideration, but ultimately rejected this past off-season was to make coaches accountable for illegal equipment by creating a penalty of a technical foul charged to the head coach should a player be found to be wearing an illegal item.
Well, here is what has been printed in the preseason guide:
"Coaches shall not allow players to wear illegal equipment or apparel. Should a team member participate while wearing illegal equipment or apparel, the penalty is a technical foul charged to the head coach as described in Rule 10-6-3 Pen. upon discovery."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Illegal equipment and apparel are not the same as an illegal uniform and don't result in the same penalty.


Not only did this erroneous information make it in the 2018 preseason guide, but also in the Simplified & Illustrated rules book, pages 14 & 15.

"Simplified..." oh, the irony!

griblets Mon Oct 22, 2018 08:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1025362)
I was informed by one our training brethren in Hawaii that the NFHS sent out corrections to that erroneous part of their PowerPoint. Will attach it as soon as I can get it downloaded.

I just accepted the role of rules interpreter in our local association. This issue is already causing problems at our first meeting. I'm very interested in an official correction that I can hopefully share at our next meeting.

BillyMac Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:16pm

Stupid NFHS ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1025369)
... designating a direct technical on the coach for any apparel infraction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griblets (Post 1025418)
Not only did this erroneous information make it in the 2018 preseason guide, but also in the Simplified & Illustrated rules book, pages 14 & 15.

And the hits just keep on coming.

griblets Mon Oct 29, 2018 02:29pm

Verbal Clarification
 
In preparation for our association meeting tonight, I called NFHS about pages 14 and 15 in the Simplified and Illustrated rules book. I spoke with Theresia Wynns who confirmed that the pages are in error, that there is no technical foul for apparel, only illegal uniforms. She confirmed that the rule has not changed regarding apparel and the associated penalty.

She mentioned that the book was published before the correction was made, but the slides have been corrected. I should have asked for a link to the corrected slides, because I can't find them!

FHSAA (Florida) still has posted the old slides. That will be my next call.

frezer11 Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:58pm

Not as important as an incorrect ruling, but in the rule book on the 3rd page in from the front, the Points of Emphasis, #4 is listed as "Officiating Professionalism and Use of Proper Technology." They then double down on their incorrect statement of Technology rather than Terminology in the comments section on page 69. This in no way affects how we will call the game, but man, who is proofreading these things?? Drives me crazy, put a little pride in what you do!

Freddy Tue Oct 30, 2018 08:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1025532)
Not as important as an incorrect ruling, but in the rule book on the 3rd page in from the front, the Points of Emphasis, #4 is listed as "Officiating Professionalism and Use of Proper Technology." They then double down on their incorrect statement of Technology rather than Terminology in the comments section on page 69. This in no way affects how we will call the game, but man, who is proofreading these things?? Drives me crazy, put a little pride in what you do!

Similarly, while using Proper Technology, you and I want to be careful to use the term "Fumble (NOT Muff)".
Even though the term "muff" is used in the Casebook in 4.15.1B, 4.44A, 9.1.1, and 9.2.1B.
...et al...

Camron Rust Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1025542)
Similarly, while using Proper Technology, you and I want to be careful to use the term "Fumble (NOT Muff)".
Even though the term "muff" is used in the Casebook in 4.15.1B, 4.44A, 9.1.1, and 9.2.1B.
...et al...


I don't know what the reference your'e talking about says, but "muff" is a valid term and is different than a fumble.

Fumble: A ball that slips from a players grasp, accidentally. A fumble can only happen to a player already holding the ball.

Muff: A ball that a player unsuccessful catches when trying to end a dribble or catch a pass....happens to a player who is not holding the ball.



It is a basic English word whose natural meaning is all we need. There is no need for the book to define every word. Some are fine as they are.

Quote:

muff verb
muffed; muffing; muffs
Definition of muff (Entry 2 of 3)
transitive verb

1 : to handle awkwardly
2 : to fail to hold (a ball) when attempting a catch
Does the book define what a hand is? :p

Freddy Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1025553)
I don't know what the reference your'e talking about says . . .

It's in the POE encouraging "Proper Technology" on p.73 of the new Rules Book. Without knowing that POE, how can you be sure the technology you use is actually correct? You'll probably be using phrases like, "...after Team A established player control", ...when the ball missed the rim", and a host of other improper technological terms that shouldn't be found in your vocabulary.
:D

BillyMac Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:44pm

Illegal Equipment ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1025553)
... "muff" is a valid term ...

Everybody knows what a muff is.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.9...=0&w=166&h=162


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