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-   -   What's in your pregame? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103925-whats-your-pregame.html)

JBleach85 Sun Jul 15, 2018 05:41pm

What's in your pregame?
 
We all know that the best thing to do before a game is to have a thorough pregame with your crew. This topic got me thinking as I was observing at a few camps recently and I wanted to see what goes into everyone's pregame to help them prepare their crew?

You don't have to give your whole pregame but a few points you think that are important in yours.

BillyMac Sun Jul 15, 2018 06:07pm

Don't Leave Home Without It ...
 
After almost four decades, and after participating in literally thousands of pregame conferences, some very good, and some very bad, as the referee, the umpire, or as an observer, with hundreds of officials, I've made of list of the common concepts that run through almost all of these conferences. Here's the list that I use for my Connecticut, two person, IAABO mechanics, high school NFHS, games.

PREGAME CONFERENCE

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3505/...67305d15_m.jpg

Stay in your primary. Something must be very obvious to come out of your primary. If something is there
that really needs to be called, call it. Be late. Be right. Be needed.

Out of Bounds Responsibilities: Lead had frontcourt endline, and nearer sideline to the free throw line extended.
Trail has nearer sideline, farther sideline above free throw line extended, division line, and all three backcourt
boundaries. During transition, press, and press break, situations, the lead, hanging back to help, will have out
of bounds responsibilities on the entire nearer sideline.

For out-of-bounds help, let's get it right. If I have no idea and I look to you for help, just give a directional
signal. No need to come to me, just point. If you don't know, give me a jump ball signal. If I signal, but
I get it wrong, then blow the whistle, and come to me. Tell me what you saw, and let me decide if I’m
going to change it.

Put the ball in play where it goes out of bounds, or where the foul, or the violation, occurs.

On throwins, count five players each team, check the table for substitutes, check the clock, good eye contact
before putting ball in play. A hand up in the air by the off official means not ready.

On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal.
Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, most often the
lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll
talk about it.

Be aware of sixth and ninth fouls. If we know that the next foul will result in bonus free throws, then we’ll
be more likely to identify the shooter, and avoid correctable errors. Noncalling official should help identify
free throw shooter.

Be consistent with each other, and with what has already happened in the game. Let’s try to remember what
we’ve called earlier in the game, and what we haven’t called.

Be aware of the time remaining in the period. Let’s help each other out by putting up one finger when
we’re under one minute. We’ll also use the hand on the chest signal for last second try responsibility.

Game management: If I call a fifth foul on a player, I’ll tell the coach, unless I think it’s going to be a problem.
If either of us warns a coach, or the bench, let’s let each other know about it. If one of us calls a technical foul
on a coach, the noncalling official will remind the coach that he must sit down.

Near the end of the game, be aware of coaches requesting timeouts and be sure to inform them after they have
used all their time outs.

Near the end of the game, if the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws
after strategic fouls, then let’s call the foul immediately so the ballhandler doesn't get hit harder to draw
a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the
defense grabs the jersey, pushes from behind, or bear hugs the offensive player, we should consider an
intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

On court at 15:00. Scorebook at 12:00. Coaches and captains meeting at 5:00: Players legally equipped?
Players wearing uniforms properly? Practice good sportsmanship?

This game is the most important game being played anywhere tonight for these kids, fans, and coaches.
Let’s make sure we officiate the game keeping that in mind, through our effort, and attitude.

2018-19 Basketball Rule Changes
Backcourt Exception: Any player located in the backcourt may recover a ball deflected
from the frontcourt by the defense.

2018-19 Basketball Points of Emphasis
Responsibility For Proper Uniform And Apparel
Establishing Pivot Foot And Traveling
Legal Guarding Position, Block/Charge, Screening, Verticality
Loose Ball Recovery
Officiating Professionalism And Use Of Proper Terminology

Connecticut Only
Point to floor for two point field goal try when shooter has foot touching three point line.
Team members are not allowed to congregate at division line, or on school logo, during introductions.
Captains, Head Coaches, Officials pregame meeting should occur prior to start of game. If the head coach
refuses to attend the meeting, notify Commissioner.

A few weeks into the season, I leave out the Rule Changes, and the Points of Emphasis.

ilyazhito Sun Jul 15, 2018 09:35pm

For me, the first order of business is the type of game and specific rules we are playing by. In the Washington, D.C. Metro Area, there are 3 athletic governing bodies (DCSAA (including the PCSAA for charter schools, the private school teams in the District of Columbia, and the DCIAA (DC public school teams)), MPSSAA, and VHSL) and several private school leagues (WCAC, IAC, MAC, ISL, PVAC, Capital Beltway League), all of which play by their own rules, so it is important which specific set of rules will we be enforcing today. The rules that tend to vary the most in my area are shot clock, closely guarded count, 10-second count (visible, not, absent [MPSSAA/DCIAA Girls]), the mercy rule [the private school leagues usually have none], and the coaching box [most private school leagues follow NCAA rules]. Another important point is primary coverage areas (I make calls in my areas, my partners make calls in theirs, unless there is a play that my partners (or I) fail to see. In that case, the non-primary official will come in with a late cadence whistle. This also applies to double whistles.). We also discuss help plays (such as out-of-bounds), switches, last second shot coverage (Trail if 2-person, OTO if 3-person) and related signals (one finger in the air for 1 minute, responsible official taps chest inside the last 15 seconds of a period), unusual situations (technical fouls, fights, etc.). In the beginning of the season, we will also discuss rule changes and points of emphasis. Finally, we talk about unusual/interesting plays we have had during the season, and team tendencies/characteristics, if any one of us had the two teams of today's game before.

That is basically my pregame in a nutshell.

Nevadaref Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023108)
... team tendencies/characteristics, if any one of us had the two teams of today's game before.

That is basically my pregame in a nutshell.

Fixed it for ya. ;)

My partners should know all of the other stuff which you mention, otherwise the assignor shouldn't be putting them on the game. If they don't, it is not my responsibility to teach them--they are getting the same game fee, so they need to take ownership of their individual preparation.

Camron Rust Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1023109)
Fixed it for ya. ;)

My partners should know all of the other stuff which you mention, otherwise the assignor shouldn't be putting them on the game. If they don't, it is not my responsibility to teach them--they are getting the same game fee, so they need to take ownership of their individual preparation.

Agree.

I will go over new stuff at the beginning, not so much to teach them but just so we're talking about it.

Most of what gets mentioned in pregame is forgotten once most officials take the floor anyway.

JRutledge Mon Jul 16, 2018 01:15am

These are the main things I will cover.
  1. New Rules or POEs (usually early in the season)
  2. Team or coach information
  3. Double whistles
  4. Technical foul administration
  5. Changing calls
  6. Long switching (done differently in our state)
  7. Personal expectations
  8. Last second shot
  9. Unusual plays

Peace

SC Official Mon Jul 16, 2018 07:41am

Pregame protocol (we don’t have a statewide procedure)
Team tendencies
Coaches
Unsporting behavior
Giving and getting help
Anything partners want to contribute

It should be a given that we’re all on the same page when it comes to rules and mechanics for a varsity game. If not it’s going to be a long night.

Oh, and I always pregame double whistles so we never have a blarge.

JRutledge Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1023112)
Oh, and I always pregame double whistles so we never have a blarge.

I only discuss double whistles so we can discuss the philosophy on who is going to take them in pre-game. I work with a lot of college Men's officials that like the college philosophy about who takes a block-charge near or around the lane. So we have to discuss what philosophy is going to be used if it is a strict position like the NCAA takes or some other variation. But mostly this discussion is who is going to take the foul to the table, rather than preventing blarges. If you discuss this, it at least puts you in a better mindset. You are never going to prevent blarges if you do not know your partner had a whistle in the first place. ;)

Peace

Raymond Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023106)
...

Connecticut Only
Point to floor for two point field goal try when shooter has foot touching three point line.
...

Only officials in the Nutmeg state can do this mechanic? :confused:

JBleach85 Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:57pm

These are all great things to have in your pregame so please keep adding on if you are able to. Here are a few things in my pregame that I use some of these overlaps between HS and College.

New Rules or POEs (usually early in the season)
Team or coach information
Double whistles
Last second shot
Unusual plays
The "4 C's" (Cataloging, Consistency, Communication, Calling the Obvious/Calling the rules as written)
Plays at the basket/Rebounding

JRutledge Mon Jul 16, 2018 01:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023114)
Only officials in the Nutmeg state can do this mechanic? :confused:

This has been an often used mechanic around her for years and I cannot think of many times if any this was discussed as a pre-game item.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 03:42pm

The Land Of Steady Habits ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023106)
Connecticut Only: Point to floor for two point field goal try when shooter has foot touching three point line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023114)
Only officials in the Nutmeg state can do this mechanic?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1023116)
This has been an often used mechanic around her for years ...

I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual and/or signal chart, but I do know that this is not an official IAABO mechanic and/or signal. "Connecticut only" means that our state interpreter has encouraged us to go "outside the IAABO box" for this specific play.

We used to have another "Connecticut only" mechanic: No long switches in the backcourt when there is no change in possession unless free throws are going to be attempted.

When done correctly, it worked great. Foul on the defense in the backcourt, no free throws, trail moves up to the reporting area, reports the foul and moves back into the backcourt to administer the throwin. Lead stays put. Simple. Right?

The problem was that we had many officials who either didn't understand the mechanic, or were downright lazy. We had varsity guys in high school varsity games not switching like they were in a recreation or travel game. We had guys not switch on player control fouls. It lasted a year, or two, and we had to go back to switching on all fouls.

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 04:05pm

Another Connecticut Only ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023106)
Connecticut Only: Team members are not allowed to congregate at division line, or on school logo, during introductions.

This (above) seems to be already covered by this (below):

2011-12 NFHS POINTS OF EMPHASIS: 1. SPORTING BEHAVIOR. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behaviors: A. Pregame Situations ... Gatherings intended to motivate a team after the warm-up period, during or following player introductions ... should be performed in the area directly in front of the team bench.

I believe that we stress this here in Connecticut because we had several incidents in the state of visiting players spitting on the home team's jump ball circle logo during pregame introductions. Our state interscholastic sports governing body wants officials to prevent such behavior.

Plus, if we didn't list it as a "Connecticut only", those who became officials after 2011-12 wouldn't know about this NFHS Point of Emphasis. When will the NFHS learn to add Points of Emphasis to the rulebook as needed. Not all, just as needed, like the contact above the shoulders Point of Emphasis from 2012-13.

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 04:19pm

Captains, Head Coaches, Officials Pregame Meeting ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023106)
Connecticut Only: Captains, Head Coaches, Officials pregame meeting should occur prior to start of game. If the head coach refuses to attend the meeting, notify Commissioner.

For your information, many, many, years ago we had a few head coaches regularly refuse to attend the pregame meeting, either because they had a gripe with the officials, or because they had a gripe with the opposing head coach. Our state interscholastic sports governing body considers this to be unsporting. Luckily, we as officials don't have to "force" the matter. We just hold the meeting with those who bother to attend, and report the violation to our assigning commissioner. He contacts the state interscholastic sports governing body, and they, in turn, contact the school's principal and athletic director. I've never had a problem with this, sometimes maybe a head coach supervising the taping of an injured player's ankle who sends his assistant coach the meeting.

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 05:01pm

Out of Bounds Responsibilities ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023106)
Out of Bounds Responsibilities: Lead had frontcourt endline, and nearer sideline to the free throw line extended. Trail has nearer sideline, farther sideline above free throw line extended, division line, and all three backcourt boundaries.

Here in my little corner of IAABO Connecticut, this (above) is the single most important item in everyone's pregame. Even grizzled veterans who don't do a pregame ("Good eye contact") will discuss this item.

We've got veteran guys who like the older mechanic of the lead taking the entire sideline. Yet, many veterans will use the newer mechanic of the lead taking the sideline only to the free throw line extended. New guys are only taught the newer mechanic, but will often work with veterans who use the older mechanic. So, it's important to be on the same page depending on who you work with.

Many pregames end up with a statement like, "When the ball goes out of bounds above the free throw line, let's be sure to get a whistle on it. We don't want the ball to end up on the coaches lap with no whistle. Two whistles are better than none. We'll figure it out after".

ilyazhito Mon Jul 16, 2018 05:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBleach85 (Post 1023115)
These are all great things to have in your pregame so please keep adding on if you are able to. Here are a few things in my pregame that I use some of these overlaps between HS and College.

New Rules or POEs (usually early in the season)
Team or coach information
Double whistles
Last second shot
Unusual plays
The "4 C's" (Cataloging, Consistency, Communication, Calling the Obvious/Calling the rules as written)
Plays at the basket/Rebounding

What would be some other college-only topics, other than the shot clock (If your state uses a shot clock for high school games, make sure that you use the correct rules)? The shot clock rules would probably be a separate section of the pregame, done briefly when mentioning positional responsibilities (T and C are usually responsible for shooters, so they would be responsible for potential shot clock violations). Restricted area responsibilities would probably fall under either primary coverage areas or double whistles. If you are working with college officials who also do high school, maybe a reminder at the beginning that today is a college game, and mention the key differences between college and HS rules;)? Anything else I am missing or not understanding properly?

JRutledge Mon Jul 16, 2018 05:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023118)
I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual and/or signal chart, but I do know that this is not an official IAABO mechanic and/or signal. "Connecticut only" means that our state interpreter has encouraged us to go "outside the IAABO box" for this specific play.

We do a lot of things that are not "approved" but they are just things you do to officiate. Not everything we do goes through some committee to decide what to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023118)
We used to have another "Connecticut only" mechanic: No long switches in the backcourt when there is no change in possession unless free throws are going to be attempted.

When done correctly, it worked great. Foul on the defense in the backcourt, no free throws, trail moves up to the reporting area, reports the foul and moves back into the backcourt to administer the throwin. Lead stays put. Simple. Right?

We do basically the same thing in Illinois. But why would you need to have this conversation about your state as something specific? Even if we have people from other states, we do not need to get into what other states do as a norm because most people do not work in other states in my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023118)
The problem was that we had many officials who either didn't understand the mechanic, or were downright lazy. We had varsity guys in high school varsity games not switching like they were in a recreation or travel game. We had guys not switch on player control fouls. It lasted a year, or two, and we had to go back to switching on all fouls.

OK. We have issues with our long switch rules because people usually are confused and do it wrong. Not a big deal and even when we talk about it, people still screw up. It is more of a laugh off thing here.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 06:06pm

Look It Up ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1023123)
We do a lot of things that are not "approved"

We don't. Other than the "Connecticut only" exceptions, we (meaning our local high school assignment board) do everything by the book, the IAABO Mechanics Manual. That's how we train new officials. That's what we base our continuing education on. New officials can learn, among other ways, by "looking it up". Older officials can get a questions answered by, among other ways, "looking it up". That's what young officials, looking for good role models, observe veteran officials doing. That's a part, and only a part, of how we evaluate officials. For an official looking to improve their mechanics, either a rookie, or a veteran, it's less confusing if everybody is doing everything the same way. Consistency is a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1023123)
But why would you need to have this conversation about your state as something specific?

Because that's the way we do it in Connecticut. We don't know, and we really don't care, what other IAABO states are doing. Do other IAABO states follow the IAABO Mechanics Manual 100%? Do other states, like Connecticut, make some slight changes to the IAABO Mechanics Manual? We really don't care.

If I move out of state, then I'll have to know, and I'll have to care, but I sincerely doubt that that will happen.

JRutledge Mon Jul 16, 2018 06:24pm

Billy you kind of missed the point. I was not suggesting that it is always OK to use signals that have not been approved. My point is that many areas have mechanics that are not talked about. For example, do you guys have a signal to tell your partners the bonus situation? Did you guys use a kick signal before it was an actual approved signal? What about the "run the end line" signal? So if you didn't, then your area must have been the only one not using those signals, because they were very common in my area and when I watched games on TV before those signals were approved. It was not a big deal. That is why I asked the question I did about your emphasis on "Connecticut only" mechanic.

And also I actually love the IAABO "You make the ruling" videos, but much of the officials are using signals that are not approved. Not sure where all the videos come from, but I doubt these games are just anyone calling these games. These games look like big tournaments or state tournament level games.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 06:28pm

Laziness ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1023123)
We have issues with our long switch rules because people usually are confused and do it wrong.

At least your guys had a half-good reason, confusion. Better than laziness, which is the problem we had here in Connecticut, and the main reason why we went back to switching on every foul.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.q...=0&w=300&h=300

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 06:39pm

Hook 'Em Horns ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1023125)
I was not suggesting that it is always OK to use signals that have not been approved. My point is that many areas have mechanics that are not talked about. For example, do you guys have a signal to tell your partners the bonus situation? Did you guys use a kick signal before it was an actual approved signal? What about the "run the end line" signal?

Good points. Bonus? We all do it, most orally, some with the "Hook 'Em Horns" signal. Kick? We've been using this signal forever, yet it's not in my oldest books (I would have bet a lot of money that it was always in the book). Run the endline? Always.

OK. You got me. We go "by the book" 98% of the time.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.0...=0&w=300&h=300

JBleach85 Mon Jul 16, 2018 09:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023122)
What would be some other college-only topics, other than the shot clock (If your state uses a shot clock for high school games, make sure that you use the correct rules)? The shot clock rules would probably be a separate section of the pregame, done briefly when mentioning positional responsibilities (T and C are usually responsible for shooters, so they would be responsible for potential shot clock violations). Restricted area responsibilities would probably fall under either primary coverage areas or double whistles. If you are working with college officials who also do high school, maybe a reminder at the beginning that today is a college game, and mention the key differences between college and HS rules;)? Anything else I am missing or not understanding properly?

Some of the other college topics that would be in my pregame is just making sure we remember certain aspects such as advancing the ball in the last minute of the 4th period. Along with remembering the .3 rule and also how do we handle Unsportsmanlike and Disqualifying fouls along with fouls of equal gravity.

ODog Mon Jul 16, 2018 09:53pm

I would never make it to the court from a BillyMac pregame. I would already have died in the locker room.

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:11pm

Ain't My First Rodeo ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 1023130)
I would never make it to the court from a BillyMac pregame.

The length and breadth of my pregame depends on who my partner is, whether, or not, we've worked together before, how recently we've worked together (my local board has over 300 officials and we do not work as crews or teams as in some locales), and their experience level. In any case, my pregame, as the referee, will never just be, "Good eye contact", however, if I'm the umpire, and if I'm working with a grizzled veteran, that may be the full extent of our pregame. I've been around the block several times. I know who's in charge and when to keep my mouth shut.

BillyMac Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:33pm

Change From Year To Year ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023106)
Connecticut Only
Point to floor for two point field goal try when shooter has foot touching three point line.
Team members are not allowed to congregate at division line, or on school logo, during introductions.
Captains, Head Coaches, Officials pregame meeting should occur prior to start of game. If the head coach
refuses to attend the meeting, notify Commissioner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1023123)
But why would you need to have this conversation about your state as something specific?

Sorry JRutledge. I didn't really answer your question the first time and just realized this while rereading the thread.

The "Connecticut Only" section is not really a regular part of my pregame. I put it with the Rule Changes, and Points of Emphasis, because like them, these "Connecticut Only" items may change from year to year. I will only mention a "Connecticut Only" item in my pregame when there is a new change, which hasn't happened in several years, and like the Rule Changes, and Points of Emphasis, only pregame these at the beginning of the season.

Raymond Tue Jul 17, 2018 07:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023122)
..If you are working with college officials who also do high school, maybe a reminder at the beginning that today is a college game, and mention the key differences between college and HS rules;)? ...

It's very presumptuous for any official to assume his/her partner needs a reminder about which rule set is being used.

In a HS pre-game, discuss HS mechanics, rules, and signals. In a college pre-game, discuss college mechanics, rules, and signals. If someone is confused or needs clarification they need to ask on their own.

Raymond Tue Jul 17, 2018 07:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023119)
This (above) seems to be already covered by this (below):

2011-12 NFHS POINTS OF EMPHASIS: 1. SPORTING BEHAVIOR. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behaviors: A. Pregame Situations ... Gatherings intended to motivate a team after the warm-up period, during or following player introductions ... should be performed in the area directly in front of the team bench.

I believe that we stress this here in Connecticut because we had several incidents in the state of visiting players spitting on the home team's jump ball circle logo during pregame introductions. Our state interscholastic sports governing body wants officials to prevent such behavior.

Why weren't officials calling Technical Fouls for this behavior?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023119)
Plus, if we didn't list it as a "Connecticut only", those who became officials after 2011-12 wouldn't know about this NFHS Point of Emphasis. ...

Well, that is not "Connecticut only". It's in the Virginia pre-season NFHS rules clinic every year.

ilyazhito Tue Jul 17, 2018 09:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023135)
It's very presumptuous for any official to assume his/her partner needs a reminder about which rule set is being used.

In a HS pre-game, discuss HS mechanics, rules, and signals. In a college pre-game, discuss college mechanics, rules, and signals. If someone is confused or needs clarification they need to ask on their own.

I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged :rolleyes: :p.

However, veteran officials who work mostly one game or the other might not be familiar with the aspects of the other game, such as a college official being invited to work a high school playoff game (assuming he works the minimum amount of varsity required in his state to be eligible for playoffs), or a high school official being occasionally called on to do the odd JuCo or DIII game. In that case, a short "OK, we're doing high school/college tonight. Any questions?" might be good to start the discussion. Officials new to the college level might also benefit from a reminder, as well as going over the differences in rules and procedures. However, this would be up to the judgement of the R that day.

LRZ Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023138)
I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged :rolleyes: :p.

You have a tendency to overstate the obvious, so it is no surprise that your attempts at humor and sarcasm often go unrecognized. You also lecture, often in response to comments by officials who began working before you were even born.

JRutledge Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023138)
I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged :rolleyes: :p.

However, veteran officials who work mostly one game or the other might not be familiar with the aspects of the other game, such as a college official being invited to work a high school playoff game (assuming he works the minimum amount of varsity required in his state to be eligible for playoffs), or a high school official being occasionally called on to do the odd JuCo or DIII game. In that case, a short "OK, we're doing high school/college tonight. Any questions?" might be good to start the discussion. Officials new to the college level might also benefit from a reminder, as well as going over the differences in rules and procedures. However, this would be up to the judgement of the R that day.

So you have worked a college game? How do you know what officials at that level know and you have never worked a game at that level?

Peace

bucky Tue Jul 17, 2018 01:25pm

All had some great pre-game advice/ideas. I always add 3 things during my pre-game with new (to working with me) officials.

1. Never, ever, ever, give the ball to a player (IB, FT, etc.) without looking at your partners and the table.................twice.

2. Never, ever, ever, withhold information. ex - If a kid has been warned, tell your partners.

3. Never, ever, ever, begin play with doubt in your head. ex - If you think we should be shooting 2 FT's instead of 1, tell your partners.

ilyazhito Tue Jul 17, 2018 03:17pm

Very true on all these points. If you fail to do No. 1, you might miss substitutes waiting at the table, and make the restart VERY awkward. 2 should be obvious. For Number 3, you might look stupid, but doing that is better than embarrassing yourself by making a correctable error, having to go to the table, and correct the error. An ounce of prevention really is worth a pound of cure.

College officials, how do you do pregame if you know that you have "tweeners" (people who do both college and HS) working your games? What I said earlier was a suggestion, but I'm curious as to how it actually plays out in practice.

High school officials, is there any change you make to your pregame if you have a newer varsity official (or two) on your games who may not be as familiar with 3-person or the other finer points that veterans usually take for granted?

JRutledge Tue Jul 17, 2018 03:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023142)
College officials, how do you do pregame if you know that you have "tweeners" (people who do both college and HS) working your games? What I said earlier was a suggestion, but I'm curious as to how it actually plays out in practice.

Unless you are doing a mostly D1 schedule, everyone is a "tweener" for the most part. Small college officials are not usually working so much (at least in my experience) where they work absolutely no high school basketball. There is not enough money or games around for someone to work that much. Almost everyone I work college with has extensive high school experience as well. And we will discuss some differences like the new rules if we are working a Saturday afternoon game and Friday night to remind us of little things or rules that just changed, but not going into every difference. If you do not know those rules, chances are you are not going to be at that level very much longer. It is a waste of time to go over rules differences that much. The game and the teams are more important than knowing what is a basket interference difference which you should already know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023142)
High school officials, is there any change you make to your pregame if you have a newer varsity official (or two) on your games who may not be as familiar with 3-person or the other finer points that veterans usually take for granted?

It is rare that I would work with a person that does not know extensively 3 person mechanics. If they are that unfamiliar, they were not getting hired in the first place. Or they are there because of an emergency like pulling up a sophomore official to work the varsity game that happened to be at the same site that night. Otherwise, this is not something to take for granted, it is just how we are assigned. And if you work with a person that is newer, it is on them to either make that known or raise issues they might be struggling with. But it is not going into the pre-game automatically. I am not discussing where we stand or how to rotate, that is just not happening.

Peace

Raymond Tue Jul 17, 2018 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023138)
I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged :rolleyes: :p.

However, veteran officials who work mostly one game or the other might not be familiar with the aspects of the other game, such as a college official being invited to work a high school playoff game (assuming he works the minimum amount of varsity required in his state to be eligible for playoffs), or a high school official being occasionally called on to do the odd JuCo or DIII game. In that case, a short "OK, we're doing high school/college tonight. Any questions?" might be good to start the discussion. Officials new to the college level might also benefit from a reminder, as well as going over the differences in rules and procedures. However, this would be up to the judgement of the R that day.

Unless I'm working with a friend, my partners at either level do not know that I work in the other level. I don't bring up HS when I'm in a college locker room. In my HS locker rooms, I know the HS rules better than 95% of my partners, so even if they know I also work college ball, they have no reason to remind me I'm working a HS game.

Safest bet is again, when at a HS venue, discuss HS officiating. When at a college venue, discuss college officiating. Don't try to get in everybody's head.

Every summer I work a local Pro-Am that uses NBA rules and mechanics. The 2 NBA officials who oversee the officiating (and occasionally work on the court with us) never bring up HS or college rules/mechanics/signals. They talk to us about NBA rules/mechanics/signals. Only reference to HS or college is "do what your are supposed to do at the level you are working that day".

BillyMac Tue Jul 17, 2018 04:04pm

Excuse Me While I Whip This Out (Blazing Saddles, 1974) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023135)
It's very presumptuous for any official to assume his/her partner needs a reminder about which rule set is being used.

Over 90% of our high school level games use NFHS rules. The other 10% involve private prep schools that use an odd set of hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules (sometimes the coaches don't even know the differences). When we work these private prep school games the "Prep School Handout" always comes out (initiated by either me, or my partner) because both of us need reminders about the rules that we're going to use that night.

Raymond Tue Jul 17, 2018 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023145)
Over 90% of our high school level games use NFHS rules. The other 10% involve private prep schools that use an odd set of hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules (sometimes the coaches don't even know the differences). When we work these private prep school games the "Prep School Handout" comes out because both of us need reminders about the rules that we're going to use that night.

There's nothing wrong with that. That's appropriate considering the environment in which you work.

But I know quite a few officials who would be offended if somebody were to assume that they didn't know high school rules and need to be reminded of them just because they also work College ball and vice versa.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Tue Jul 17, 2018 04:28pm

Reactive and Proactive ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023106)
Connecticut Only: Team members are not allowed to congregate at division line, or on school logo, during introductions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023119)
2011-12 NFHS POINTS OF EMPHASIS: 1. SPORTING BEHAVIOR. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behaviors: A. Pregame Situations ... Gatherings intended to motivate a team after the warm-up period, during or following player introductions ... should be performed in the area directly in front of the team bench.

I believe that we stress this here in Connecticut because we had several incidents in the state of visiting players spitting on the home team's jump ball circle logo during pregame introductions. Our state interscholastic sports governing body wants officials to prevent such behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023136)
Why weren't officials calling Technical Fouls for this behavior?

They were (it didn't involve my little part corner of Connecticut). In the aftermath, the state interscholastic sports governing body decided to try to prevent this activity rather than punish (although it's still an option for us). They were being both reactive and proactive (this was a few years before 2011-12).

BillyMac Tue Jul 17, 2018 04:50pm

I'm Going To Be Using Some College Stuff Tonight ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1023144)
... my partners at either level do not know that I work in the other level.

I wish that you worked on my local board. Although not many, I've worked with a few partners over the years that couldn't wait to tell that that they're a college official. Some even warned me and insisted that they can't switch from college interpretations, mechanics, signals, etc., to those of high school.

I have a few friends that I know work college and high school games. It's always me who initiates a discussion along the lines of, "So, did you have any great college games lately?", or, "I've got a question about a college rule that I saw on television a few nights ago". None of my college friends would think to initiate such a discussion on their own.

BillyMac Tue Jul 17, 2018 05:13pm

I Was A Bad Partner That Night ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1023141)
Never, ever, ever, begin play with doubt in your head.

Great advice.

I began a play with a doubt in my mind two seasons ago and it effected a game that should not have gone into overtime, with the offended team losing.

Very late in a close game, my partner called a double free throw violation, that I didn't see. He sounded his whistle, announced a "double violation", and announced the penalty. I could tell by his body language and the sound of his voice that he didn't seem 100% sure, but he was a top notch official and I didn't want to question him. I became the administering official and handed the ball to the team that he had announced.

Immediately after the game I asked him about the call. He explained what he observed, I politely questioned his call, and we both got out our books and looked it up. Sure enough, he got the call wrong, it wasn't a double violation. As soon as we came to this realization, there was a knock on the door, the offended coach, who lost the game in overtime, politely asked about the play. We had to admit that we screwed up, and we apologized. He surprisingly accepted.

I was a bad partner that night. If had questioned my partner at the time, we never would have screwed up.

JRutledge Tue Jul 17, 2018 05:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023148)
I wish that you worked on my local board. Although not many, I've worked with a few partners over the years that couldn't wait to tell that that they're a college official. Some even warned me and insisted that they can't switch from college interpretations, mechanics, signals, etc., to those of high school.

What was a way those officials would try to tell you, "I am a college official." I would just laugh, because I have done college for some time and almost never talk about what I do unless asked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023148)
I have a few friends that I know work college and high school games. It's always me who initiates a discussion along the lines of, "So, did you have any great college games lately?", or, "I've got a question about a college rule that I saw on television a few nights ago". None of my college friends would think to initiate such a discussion on their own.

No reason to talk about it unless asked. I might talk about college to other college officials, but not to officials that have never done that level for sure.

Peace

ilyazhito Tue Jul 17, 2018 05:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1023145)
Over 90% of our high school level games use NFHS rules. The other 10% involve private prep schools that use an odd set of hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules (sometimes the coaches don't even know the differences). When we work these private prep school games the "Prep School Handout" always comes out (initiated by either me, or my partner) because both of us need reminders about the rules that we're going to use that night.

Billy, officials in the DMV are in the same boat. The bigger private school leagues use rules that are a hybrid of NFHS and NCAA (dunking is allowed in warmups, the coaching box rule is copied from college, boys games use the NCAA men's rules on inbound spots, and the shot clock and related rules (backcourt counts and closely guarded counts) follow NCAA rules of the appropriate gender). Public high school games in DC and MD use the shot clock (VA does not), so the related rules (backcourt and closely guarded count) also differ between leagues, and the mercy rules for each league are different. This means that officials must be absolutely sure as to what set of rules they are using that day, and why every pre-game begins with a reminder of today's rules. You have "Connecticut only" quirks, I have DMV quirks that I need to take into account in my games.

JRutledge Wed Jul 18, 2018 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023151)
This means that officials must be absolutely sure as to what set of rules they are using that day, and why every pre-game begins with a reminder of today's rules. You have "Connecticut only" quirks, I have DMV quirks that I need to take into account in my games.

Forgive me, but wouldn't they know this already if they showed up to work the game?

I have never needed someone to remind me what the procedures are for an NAIA game compared to a JUCO game that has some different rules in pre-game for example. So why would I need you to remind me of that fact? Now if you want to discuss a very unique difference of that level that you do not normally go by, then I can understand that part. But I do not need you to go through an entire diatribe about what rules are being used. Hell the levels I just mentioned required different shirts to be used. I think if I put the shirt in my bag, I probably am aware of the difference.

Peace

ilyazhito Wed Jul 18, 2018 04:18pm

JRut, if you don't believe me, go to any scholastic basketball game in DC or the immediate suburbs, and sit in on the officials' pre-game conference. This may not be the way you personally do things, but this is what I have experienced in every pre-game conference I participated in or sat in on in the DC Metro Area.

JRutledge Wed Jul 18, 2018 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023163)
JRut, if you don't believe me, go to any scholastic basketball game in DC or the immediate suburbs, and sit in on the officials' pre-game conference. This may not be the way you personally do things, but this is what I have experienced in every pre-game conference I participated in or sat in on in the DC Metro Area.

This is not about belief. I asked why that would be necessary when many of us work different levels, rules or procedures and we do not go into a diatribe every game about those differences.

And it appears to not be the way a lot of other people do things based on their experiences either. Honestly, you do not have a lot of experience either, so you seem to be talking from a place of stubbornness rather than general practice. IJS.

Peace

ilyazhito Wed Jul 18, 2018 05:31pm

Any other things that you gentlemen (and ladies, if there are any female users or readers of this website) mention in your pre-game discussions? If you get games from other teams on film, you would go over anything that you saw on video. Does anyone use video for the pre-game conference itself? I know from all-access videos of Big 12 and Big 10 officials that officials at the D1 level watch video in their post-game conferences, and NBA officials watch video in their pregame conferences, so I'm curious if any users also do the same things. The only reason I haven't seen this done is because high school games are not often filmed in a way that is accessible to the officials, if at all.

BillyMac Wed Jul 18, 2018 05:47pm

Prep School Pregame ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023163)
... if you don't believe me, go to any scholastic basketball game ...

I believe you ilyazhito. As I stated earlier, here in Connecticut private prep schools use hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules that often change from year to year. I have never left a private prep school dressing room without both of us (two man Connecticut) reviewing the differences between the "normal" NFHS rules that we're used to and the weird NFHS/NCAA rules that we're about to use that night. Even grizzled veteran referees who would normally have a pregame of "Let's not screw anything up" (they usually substitute another word for "screw"), or, "Good eye contact", and nothing else, go over the rule differences. "How many timeouts do they get?". "Who gets a closely guarded count?". "How many feet for closely guarded? Boys and girls?". "Do the girls get a ten second backcourt count?". "Does the coach sit when he gets a technical foul?". "Do we use the shot clock for ten seconds?".

We only work one, or two, private prep school games a year (I worked none last season). The weird rules often change from year to year. The few NCAA rules that they use may delay a few years to make their way down to this level. We didn't know until just before the most recent season started that they, i.e., the private prep schools, switched the girls from three feet to six feet for closely guarded. Even the guys that do both high school and college have trouble with the rule differences. I would never go on the court without reviewing the rule differences, and neither would any of my partners.

I always have problems reading the scoreboard (who's close to the bonus) even though we pregame that the visiting team would always be wearing white. Stupid private prep school rules.

Raymond Wed Jul 18, 2018 09:43pm

I don't like reviewing rule differences in pre-games because the conversations delve off too much into what the rule is in the level we're not working that night. My experience is that officials start mixing it up when you start bringing up another level.

But if you are going to review rule differences in the pregame, do it for yourself. Don't say you're doing it because you think one of your partner's needs the review.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

ilyazhito Thu Jul 19, 2018 04:54am

We (Officials in Board 12 and MBOA) do the reviews for ourselves, and we only say "Today is a (WCAC girls) game. We have a 30-second shot clock, no closely guarded on a dribble, 10 second count on the shot clock, does not reset unless shot clock resets, no mercy rule. The coaching box is 38', and the coach is not required to sit after a technical foul." After we go through the current rules (we only mention the rules that we are using for the present game: a chart of rules differences for all high school leagues is posted on the MBOA website, and Board 12 has a similar page with the rules differences for its leagues on its website. The expectation is that we review the websites or print out the charts. I memorize the differences, or write them into the notes sections of my mechanics manuals ), we continue with the rest of our pregame conference.

sdoebler Thu Jul 19, 2018 09:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023169)
The only reason I haven't seen this done is because high school games are not often filmed in a way that is accessible to the officials, if at all.

Almost every game is filmed it just takes a little more effort on the officials end to get the tape from high school games. I often put an email address on our pre-game card and ask the home coach for the tape. If I don't get the film within a week I follow up as the coach or ADs email is always listed somewhere on the school website. Gotten every film I wanted if I put the effort in to obtain it.

SWMOzebra Thu Jul 19, 2018 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1023169)
Any other things that you gentlemen (and ladies, if there are any female users or readers of this website) mention in your pre-game discussions? If you get games from other teams on film, you would go over anything that you saw on video. Does anyone use video for the pre-game conference itself?

Yes, as a general rule I use video in pre-game conferences when I am the R. Early in the season, I will show a couple of clips of plays from the previous season (but only plays in which I was directly involved). Maybe a RA/LDB play or two plus a few unusual plays (unsportsmanlike, tech, double foul, etc) mostly to emphasize the importance of crew communication, but also remind everyone of floor positioning and working for angles (I have many, many clips of myself being caught out of position :o). Early season non-conference games often involve rookies and I believe this helps to relax them a bit watching someone else (me) make mistakes or miscues and then recover.

As we get deeper into the season and current film is available about the teams in the contest we're getting ready to work, I'll show clips of the teams from previous games to highlight their styles and tendencies of key players.

When I'm not the R, then I let the R run the show. S/he may or may not use clips and that's entirely up to them.


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