Dribble ...

bucky

BillyMac wrote
".. illegal dribble violation because the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted to start a dribble.

Isn't that traveling and not an illegal dribble?

Camron Rust

bucky wrote
I was not referring to starting a dribble. You are.

Actually, you are too. Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.. Howeover, many just wait, as you said, until the next touch to confirm it but that doesn't mean that is when it becomes a dribble.

bucky

Nevadaref wrote
The ball must contact the floor to be a legal dribble.

Technically, not true.

BillyMac

bucky wrote
Isn't that traveling and not an illegal dribble?

Thanks, fixed it.

44-3-C: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

BillyMac

bucky wrote
Technically, not true.

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Not to be argumentative, but for the good of the cause.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
... many just wait, as you said, until the next touch to confirm it ...

Not waiting, in many cases, but probably not all, is paramount to just plain old ordinary guessing, and we as officials, try to avoid guessing as much as we possibly can.

Not many of us carry a crystal ball in our pocket with an extra whistle, and an extra needle.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.

It doesn't feel right, but by rule you may be correct, but by practical application, most times we should wait to confirm that it's not the start of a bounce pass.

This rule could be better worded, much better worded.

bucky

Camron Rust wrote
Actually, you are too. Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.. Howeover, many just wait, as you said, until the next touch to confirm it but that doesn't mean that is when it becomes a dribble.

No, I am not. You are referring to starting a dribble initially. I am not referring to that at all but rather starting a dribble once a dribble has ended. One might think they are or at least should be the same however the case book clearly distinguishes the two.

bucky

BillyMac wrote
Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Yes and then the gurus complain about users not reading/finding it themselves. Sigh. Check 4.15.1 Sit C and 4.15.5 Sit C. They involve dribbles without the ball touching the floor. Hard to believe that throwing the ball against an official is considered a dribble.

Camron Rust

bucky wrote
No, I am not. You are referring to starting a dribble initially. I am not referring to that at all but rather starting a dribble once a dribble has ended. One might think they are or at least should be the same however the case book clearly distinguishes the two.

If the initial dribble is started on the release, how is a subsequent (illegal) dribble not also started on the release?

Again, we may choose to wait for what happens next to make a call (or not), but that doesn't change the fact that the dribble actually began on the release.

BillyMac

bucky wrote
Yes and then the gurus complain about users not reading/finding it themselves. Check 4.15.1 Sit C and 4.15.5 Sit C. They involve dribbles without the ball touching the floor.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s
backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches
the ball and: (a) passes the ball to A2; or (b) starts a dribble. RULING: The pass
against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the
ball. In (a), the pass is legal action. In (b), it is a violation for a second dribble. (4-
4-5; 9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

BillyMac

(Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989)

Camron Rust wrote
The dribble starts by deliberately pushing/throwing the ball to the floor. That is the control...the deliberate throw/push, not the next action. Nothing about the definition of a dribble requires anything else to happen.

Camron Rust wrote
... but that doesn't change the fact that the dribble actually began on the release.

Camron Rust wrote
Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

It's the holy grail, a citation that explicitly tells us that it only takes the start of a dribble to be a dribble.

The casebook play doesn't say anything about the ball hitting the floor, or being touched a second time. Nothing. It just says that A1 "starts a dribble".

I would still wait to be sure that this isn't a legal "bounce" pass, so a second touch would seal the deal for me, but by the book, the second touch isn't necessary.

Nice job Camron Rust. Way to stick to your guns. Nice debate. I learned something. Thanks for your persistence and your patience.

Play A: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

Ruling: Violation for illegal (double) dribble.

Nevadaref

BillyMac wrote
Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Not to be argumentative, but for the good of the cause.

Probably what he means is throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official. Of course, the rules book states that both of those are treated the same as contacting the floor, so he is just being picky.

I've been striving to make the more important point that the ball must bounce before a moving player may touch it again because it isn't a legal dribble if it doesn't. (Note for someone being picky and not understanding the general premise of this thread: A stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it because the rules state that doesn't count as a dribble.)

Nevadaref

Camron Rust wrote
If the initial dribble is started on the release, how is a subsequent (illegal) dribble not also started on the release?

Again, we may choose to wait for what happens next to make a call (or not), but that doesn't change the fact that the dribble actually began on the release.

100% correct.
We had this discussion on this forum about seven years ago. Camron and I were on the same side then too. The casebook has a play stating that it is a violation when the player releases the ball. That is the start of a dribble.
I'm shocked that Billy does not recall that long thread.

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
I'm shocked that Billy does not recall that long thread.

I definitely recall the thread. I don't recall a consensus, or conclusion, based on language from 4.15.1 SITUATION C.

Now, where are my keys?

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
Probably what he means is throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official. Of course, the rules book states that both of those are treated the same as contacting the floor, so he is just being picky.

ART. 4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball
touching the floor at that individual’s location.
ART. 5 A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is
treated the same as touching the floor inbounds; see also 4-15-1.

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
... the ball must bounce before a moving player may touch it again because it isn't a legal dribble if it doesn't.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
A stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it because the rules state that doesn't count as a dribble.)

BillyMac wrote
4.15.4 SITUATION D ... because the ball was touched twice by A1’s hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

I know that both of these statements are 100% true, but I can't find a citation for either.

Where does it state that stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it?

Where does it state that the ball may not be touched twice by the hands during a dribble? Is it this: The dribble ends when: c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands? But the twice touch doesn't have to be simultaneous, does it? Can't it just be twice before the ball hits the floor?

In don't remember failing Basketball Rules 100. Let me check my transcript. I may have to go to summer school. Yikes.

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
The casebook has a play stating that it is a violation when the player releases the ball.

Is it 4.15.1 SITUATION C, or is there an additional casebook play? Another casebook play would be swell, said the Beaver to Wally.

bucky

BillyMac wrote

(Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989)

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

It's the holy grail, a citation that explicitly tells us that it only takes the start of a dribble to be a dribble.

The casebook play doesn't say anything about the ball hitting the floor, or being touched a second time. Nothing. It just says that A1 "starts a dribble".

I disagree. I feel that it does say something about the the ball being touched a second time with "...which ended when A1 caught the ball." You feel that "starts a dribble" is the key when IMO, "..which ended when.." is also paramount. That is the violation for a second dribble, the complete act, not just the start of it.

Nevadaref wrote
he is just being picky.

Um, no kidding. Apparently you glossed over my post and missed the part where I indicated "Technically,...."

Nevadaref wrote
Camron and I were on the same side then too.

And I guarantee that neither one of you would call anything until the ball was touched.

BillyMac wrote
Where does it state that stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it?

Where does it state that the ball may not be touched twice by the hands during a dribble? Is it this: The dribble ends when: c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands? But the twice touch doesn't have to be simultaneous, does it? Can't it just be twice before the ball hits the floor?

4.44.3 Sit C for tossing from one hand to the other. See rule (you cited already) 4-15 art 4 and case 4.15.4.Sit C for twice touch stuff.

There are instances where the books (rule and/or case) indicate "starts a dribble" (note a verb) is the issue but then that same case will have a ruling that indicates the violation is a "second dribble" (note a noun). Case 4.15.1.Sit C is a perfect example.

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