AAU Tournaments and peer-pressure to move the games along...
 

I hate doing some AAU tournaments because I feel like the organizers pressure the refs to only keep the games moving. IMHO I've seen games end up taking longer and being far more out of control due to unruly behavior due to so many no calls. They end up becoming rock fights and getting very messy down the stretch.

I've been ashamed of some of the games I've been part of due to partners unwillingness to blow their wistle. I hear comments like "I'm not calling shit, I just want to go home, this is my last game".

I attended my son's game this past weekend. While I was not officiating many of the parents know I am an official, so I was forced to field a lot of questions which I either correctly defend the on court officials or explain how angles and views of what happens are a lot different on the court. The game was a shit show. One ref was very solid. The other refused to blow his wistle and also refused to switch ends on any calls. Keep in mind my son's team won the game so this isn't sour grapes. It was concern for player safety and enjoyment of the game. With the exception of one player on the other team who very loudly enjoyed the shit show taunting fans, players, the coach etc. I don't think anyone coaches, fans, players enjoyed that game (except for that douche bag player).

What if anything should be done when you observe an official clearly not caring and putting players at jepordy. He no-called some of the most insane two hand shoves. Trips, two hand shoves... flagrent fouls that would be ejections or min. techs at any scholastic game. Once the player in question swiped at the testicles of another player knocking to his knees. The ref that was in question let out a small chuckle, his only response.

The parents all said we do not yell at the refs out of respect for you knowing you are an official, but when they are not even trying how can we stand for that. I didn't know what to say.

PS - The solid official started the game alone for the first 5 minutes, he was young, but solid. The older guy finally showed up and clearly wanted to go home early was in the young offials ear influencing him (peer-pressure) to lay off his whistle.

It for sure solidified my unwant to officiate AAU tournaments. Especially those that are not run by organizers that care about anything other then the revenue.

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Don't officiate at such venues and don't allow your child(ren) to play at such venues.

testes testes....1....2....

One more reason not to work any AAU ball outside of a camp situation.

Peace

Couldn't agree more. Lesson learned.

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Easier said than done. Without playing on a club, its tough to "keep up with the Jones" in modern basketball once you get to HS and HS coaches expect that player are playing in the off season.

My son has just come to terms with the fact that the refs will probably stink at those games--when they are merely bad it is a pleasant surprise.

Everyone should check out AAU Bingo on Twitter to see the most hilarious, despicable and predictable stuff week in and week out (officiating-related and otherwise) in the cesspool/circus that is AAU basketball.

I agree even more with this.

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AAU basketball exists for one reason only--to make $ for those running the tournaments. Do not ever forget that fact.

Now, the solution to the problems that you've highlighted is to pay the officials more for those AAU games. That will attract more officials and a better quality of officials. They won't be so tired after doing 16 games in a weekend and those on the court will have the pride to handle the games with respect.

Until that happens, the tournaments will get exactly what they pay for.

I couldn't agree more. I was saying this exact thing this past weekend. These refs got $27 a game meantime the score keeper girl was 13 years old got $5.

They probably made $30K off this tournament. Not bad for 2 days of shitty basketball.

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This cracked me up and made me sad at the same time.

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If you haven't learned this already, you will quickly find out that there will ALWAYS be officials (and even camp clinicians) willing to sell their souls to these tournament organizers.

The cheap buck is more important to lots of officials than doing what's right for the game of basketball. Because when you call a game the way it's supposed to be called, many times that will just upset the organizers and the paying teams. It is what it is.

The simple answer is to not do these games because you're not going to be a trailblazer. Of course, that's easier to say if you don't need the money or you're not a less experienced official trying to work on things.

Pay more for officials, and use 3-man crews. 3-man crews are better for off-ball coverage, game management (preventing the dumb stuff), and seeing illegal action than 2-man crews are. This would be especially useful for AAU ball.

This is just an example of naivety here.

Those holding the tournaments also decide on the number of officials and what they're going to pay them. If they can get the games covered with 2 officials on each court and pay them $20, they will. If they can't, they'll slowly raise the game fees till they get enough.

3-person? Why would they EVER do that? They don't really care how well the games are officiated. 3-person would be $25 extra per court per hour that they can't stick in their pockets.

Working glorified street ball in 2-person crews will never make anyone a better official. I stopped doing this stuff decades ago when I no longer needed to whore myself out to help pay the rent.

If it was 3-person and paid reasonably well, I'd do it only to see more plays, etc. But how is a 2-person game going to benefit me at this point in my life, when I work no 2-person games in the season?

I really don't care about this stuff anymore. If people want to go make $100 dealing with that stuff for 4 hours, good for them.

We have a decent amount of summer tournaments that assign 3 person. It is quite nice and obviously attracts better referees. Games are generally 25/game 2 person or 20/game 3 person so for the extra 10/game it can be worth it to the tournament.

I've never had an issue with these types of things. And I disagree that there is one way that is the "right for the game of basketball" as someone suggested.

High school games follow NFHS rules and (at least in my area) you have an assignor and rules interpreter who define an approach that they want. Don't try and take your HS approach and apply it to a AAU game or an adult rec league or a 5th grade CYO game -- or a college game for that matter.

My goal in an AAU type game is consistency of calls. We may not adhere to the strict NFHS points of emphasis on hand checking, for example, but that's fine because its not an NFHS game where I'm expected to call things a certain way.

I also try to find some value in these types of games. I've found that working adult rec games or AAU games, for example, has helped me with having a patient whistle, watching plays start, develop, and finish, and with evaluating advantage/disadvantage.

OK, my question is simple. Then what standards would you use if you say you do not use strict NFHS interpretations? The NCAA has the same exact interpretations as the NF (Guess where the NF got their standard from?) Even the NBA has similar philosophies when it comes to plays on the perimeter, the post is just a little different for a lot of reasons.

Peace

OK young fellow.......time to calm down. This is AAU for and nobody cares about three man. The directors only care about entry fees and the last game starting on time. There is no organized ball, with the exception of EYBL and Adidas Gauntlet. Whoever gets the rebound, dribbles up court and jacks up a bad three. Coaches are the same people screaming in the stands in the winter (parents )...Three man, four man it won't change the culture.

I worked an event this weekend 16 and 17 and my partner only works rec ball. Every blocked shot he called a foul for "body"......You can try to be a purist but the reality is if your willing to work be ready for all the crap that comes with it...

Brent,

Sit by yourself. This is no difference than a high school umpire going to his kids 10U game and people getting on the ump for a bad zone. Your there as a dad. Support your son. That is what is important.

I did an event this weekend where a guy who played for Lefty Driesell at University of Maryland was watching his son ( 6"6") 8th grade. He detests this crap so much he sits alone. Dude was recruited by Terry Holland, Dean Smith and Lefty. He gets it, it is a neccessary evil. Not worth it to have your son's two guard dad, who is an IT guy to be asking you for an explanation when a kid fumbles the ball why a travel isn't called.....

Flashback!!

Lefty, Dean, Terry Holland?

Are you sure he wasn't supporting his GRANDSON?

I thought that AAU was actually about basketball, and officials actually cared... In that case my comments would have been relevant, because 3 man = a cleaner, safer game, because more fouls can be seen and called.

However, now I realize that AAU basketball (with the exception of some leagues, is a mix between a zoo and a circus, with very little resemblance to actual basketball:(. If they are not willing to provide proper crews, at least give some training to AAU officials, to avoid situations like the one with your partner. Some officials there are entertaining, others are embarrassing.

I'll stay out of this zoo, and maybe Brent and other posters will as well.

AAU is about money. From the organizers to the assignors. It's how much they can pack in their pockets while actually doing as little as possible. The coaches and parents are out of control. I was one of the very few that took 0 crap. I have tossed coaches, parents, players and declared forfeits. It's like the wild west, and if you give an inch it only gets worse very fast.

There are a few properly run ones but it's rare.

Never Sold My Soul To The Devil ...
 

... the only reason why I did Catholic middle school games for over thirty years.

Catholic middle school games were never for the money, but I would never would have done them for free.

With the exception of a few mechanics issues, (don't switch on every foul, throw the ball across the lane on frontcourt endline throwins, etc.), we did use a high school approach in these Catholic middle school games because that's what the assigner, and the league, wanted.

Even at the very beginning, when I was doing mens recreation, youth recreation, and travel games, for both the money, and the experience, I always officiated with a high school approach. Even for the short time that our local board assigned AAU games.

I never sold my soul to the devil. Never.

DEFINITELY not. I always try to explain it to people like this: If "real basketball" (say, a legitimate boys varsity game) is a 10 in terms of site supervision, game administration, proper infrastructure, rules enforcement, sportsmanship expectations, officiating accountability, etc., AAU basketball is AT BEST a 5.

Atta boy ... exactly!

But, like another poster said, if you go in with the proper mindset, you CAN often get something out of it as an official, like seeing more plays, encountering more scenarios, applying new techniques and staying in shape, to name a few.

I did AAU for the money in college. Because $150-$200 in cash in Southwest, VA is a hell of a lot. Nowadays? Screw that. I'm working travel soccer, which is actually organized and pays a hell of a lot better. And I need that money for camps.

In fact, camps are the only times you'll catch me doing AAU ball. And it's an evil thing as everyone here already knows. I got a buddy who organizes these things, and while his goal is to rake in bills, he at least ponies up for security and safe facilities.

Last year in a local AAU tournament championship game a kid intentional fouled a kid at the end of the game and then screamed at me for calling an intentional and got a Technical foul. Final 1.5 minutes and it cost his team the game. Dad came after me after the game and wanted to fight me in the parking lot. I do not do championship local AAU games any more. Not worth it.

The flip side is next month I will be at the largest tournament in the world 1100+ teams. Those assignors want us to blow even if it puts the day behind. If you dont blow you end up with a game like that. I take my friends so I dont have to work a game like that with some knucklehead. That assignor would fire him on the spot. That assignor tells us every morning meeting to call stuff.

I would tell those parents to take out their phone record some plays and tell that AAU orginzation these are going to your national office. Our team is not going to return until player safety is something that is important to you. That how is this play on video not an ejection. Those 20 parents are in his face things will change.

Just my 2 cents.

For refs out there reading these posts, I would not necessary exclude AAU games from your schedule. Yeah, they can be awful as people note but I have been to games that are played at a very high level and things are well-organized. I also make a point of limiting the number of games I will do. For CYO and AAU, the assignors only have a certain number of refs, often a lot of games and things can get out of hand easily. I've reffed with people who might be doing their 10th game of the day. It's ridiculous. It can be a roll of the dice but for me it's worked out fine by limiting my games and keeping an even-temperament throughout.

I think that aaubingo site takes a lot of cheap shots.

It Wouldn't Be Pretty ...
 

Lingchi (Chinese: Death by a thousand cuts).

Even many, many years ago when I was younger, lighter, and faster, I probably wouldn't be able to do more than three, or four games without compromising some of my running, and positioning. Even if I could get past the physical challenges of doing more games, I know that the mental challenges of concentrating on the game would start to suffer after three, or four games.

When I first started I would do three local high school age recreation games every Monday, and Wednesday night (usual off nights for Connecticut high school basketball). I did them for the money (my three kids were college bound) and for the experience. I treated these games like any of my high school games, and I found that by the second half of the third game I was physically, and mentally, exhausted, just looking at the clock to see when I would be able to go home.

Sure I could do ten games if I could just hang around as the trail at the division line, never run up as the new trail, never switch on fouls, and pick and choose what I would call, or not call, based on my mood, the score, the kids, etc. It wouldn't be pretty, and I wouldn't be proud of myself, which is why I would never do it. Never. Ever. I have way too much pride in my officiating skills to do such a thing.

But I also understand that some guys really need the money to make student loan payments, car payments, credit card payments, rent, mortgage, etc., or maybe they owe a coaching friend, or an assigner, a favor, making it almost impossible to say no.

At a tournament honking of this thread. Well, the game was a blow out, but really? Team bringing up the ball, and the lead ref is turned around looking at the game on the next court. OK, boring game, take a quick look? Uh, no. As the offense ramps up, Ref still has her back to our court. Offense cycles, drive to the hoop—still back to the court. Ref turns back after a shot is taken—and sits down. Oh my. Apparently not even paid enough to pretend to pay attention.

WHAAT!? I don't know whether to laugh or cry when hearing this. Hopefully, no one got hurt because of this official's (in)actions. This would definitely NOT happen at a high school game, because the offender would be suspended, sued, or fired for negligence, if not all the above.

@ilyazhito

You reinforce my suspicion you are either a coach, an outright troll or just incredibly naive, especially when repeating the old canard "Someone's gonna get hurt" as if there were any validity to such statements.

Those aren't mutually exclusive. ;)

He said he had Asperger's.

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@justacoach, the official looking onto the other court when she is responsible for her game is setting herself up for a lawsuit, especially if someone gets fouled, and she does not see or call the foul. Any official who did that in my game during live play would go on my block list.

Exactly how many lawsuits have actually happened to any officials for any reason? I'm guessing its very rare.

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In 15+ years I have heard of 1. And it was because the official pushed a kid.

So now add counselor-at-law to your list of suspected avocations....and a quite picky one at that. You're suggesting a lawsuit be filed if someone gets fouled?

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Liability ???
 

There must be some degree of liability? Somebody wrote a whole book about it.

https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Offici.../dp/1582080844

Remember, anybody can sue anybody at any time for almost any reason. Even if the official is in the right, he still has to hire an attorney, and those billable hours add up quickly.

“He who represents himself has a fool for a client.” (Abraham Lincoln)

Retro ...
 

I just spotted this. Very cool. My nomination for Post O' The Month.

There are more and more of these, but it is not for not calling a foul. It is usually for some negligence of some kind in the accusation for much bigger things. Like a facility issue or something involving safety of something worn or against the rules. But this is not just about the official, it is about others involved and the official might be just one of the plaintiffs out of a few others. Still very rare overall.

Peace

Failing to monitor the situation for possible foul play, with said failure to pay attention to one's surroundings leading to bodily harm for another (a player) under the responsibility of the official can qualify as negligence, which is considered a tort. There are four elements to this tort, duty, breach, damages, and causation.

The duty of an official to exercise reasonable care includes paying attention to what is happening on the court while the official is on the court and has jurisdiction. This official failed to perform that duty.

Breach: The defendant breaches that duty through an act or culpable omission. Not paying attention to what is going on on the court most certainly qualifies as a culpable omission.

Damages: As a result of said act or omission, the plaintiff (a player) suffers an injury. If a player is injured because of an illegal play that happened while the official was not paying attention, that fulfills the damages criterion.

Causation: the injury to the plaintiff is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the defendant's act or omission. If players see that an official is not paying attention, they may use that to illegally contact another player. If the illegal contact causes harm, then it is reasonable to imply causation from the official's inattention to the player's injury.

Thus, the criteria for the tort of negligence (and a lawsuit for negligence) against the official can be fulfilled, if a player is hurt because an official watches action on another court, without paying attention to his/ her own. In that scenario, a lawsuit would be reasonable, due to the official's inaction.

Back to the regularly scheduled thread on AAU Basketball (or lack thereof).

I did 4 AAU games this weekend, and it was girls. The games were tied to the Nike EYBL circuit. I had probably 14U-15U games. But the games were well-played, even the blow-outs. The coaches were not a problem at all. Only had one set of obnoxious fans out the 8 teams.

I'm very selective about what I work in the off-season. I used to have a 3-game limit, but I've pared that back to 2 game/day limit. After that, I don't want to be out there.

You'd better be a damned good official to overcome whatever it is you've shown on this board. Just sayin.


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@justacoach was asking if I suggested that someone file a lawsuit if a player was fouled, I explained why it could happen, and why the plaintiff would have standing in court. In no way did I suggest that said lawsuit be filed.

Is EYBL the league that plays the games that officials work at camps in the DC Metro Area? I heard that they were one of the few AAU leagues that can be trusted.

EYBL is a national AAU league sponsored by Nike. The boys have 4 stops where teams play a pre-arranged schedule of games (usually about 5 games in weekend). Think there are 40 teams involved. One of the stops is always the Boo Williams complex in Hampton, VA, which has always been officiated by the MEAC staff camp. Others are places like Minneapolis, Houston, Las Vegas, San Francisco. The finals are always played in North Augusta, GA (Peach Jam) and are officiated by some sort of SEC consortium related camp. In Hampton, other national AAU teams at lower age levels also participate in a standard AAU style tournament.

I'm not sure how the girls EYBL is run.

Can you even define "strict interpretations" on judgement calls? There are absolutes in rules and then there are rules that require judgement. You can't tell me that you judge illegal contact the same way for different levels of play. The non-HS leagues do many things different -- running clocks, different # of timeouts, no color restrictions on undershirts, etc. If the assignor for an AAU league makes it clear that they want to keep the games moving, I have no issue taking that into consideration just as I would if the assignor who tells us not to strictly enforce NFHS uniform rules that aren't safety related.

My whole point was that I personally don't see adapting my playcalling to the a non-HS environment as a big deal. Someone who tells me that they don't adapt their decision making to the level of play and type of game is either lying or not a good referee.

10-1-4 in college is the same rule of 10-6-12 in NF.

I absolutely call the game the same way. I was not talking about obvious rules differences like if the 3 point line in college is different than high school that I would use that line in high school. Or I would call a block-charge call the same as if there is an RA in a high school game. But when the contact rules are the same, I would call it exactly the same way. If the action is not a foul in a college game, it is not a foul in a high school game. But many uniform rules in college and NF are practically the same and will be strictly enforced. That is often not even considered in games under AAU. Did a tournament in another state and no one was going around telling kids to roll up their shorts or take off those undershirts that did not match the jersey. Heck there were even officials that allowed taped ears because the kid had on earrings.

Well if there are rules for fouls, I am calling them. Because if we don't, then I am not doing my job and I would rather call the foul that is supported by rule than pass on something. The most games I work in AAU are associated with a camp and no where are we told to not call something because it is AAU or we are being evaluated for higher than high school. ;)

Well I see basketball as basketball. It is the same basic game from grammar school to college and even pros. The difference is the ability of the players that can handle marginal contact differently. But if the illegal contact puts a player at a disadvantage, then it is a foul regardless of who is playing. And when I go to camps were are asked to call the game the same that I would if I was working a high school game even though the camp is for college basketball. If you are asking me to change something, then you do not understand the game IMO.

Peace

Ripped Earlobe ...
 

While I'm not the most flexible guy when it comes to deviating from NFHS rules, I can be a little flexible in some non-scholastic situations. However, this is one line that I'm not about to cross because it involves a safety issue. If someone gets an earlobe ripped apart, this would be the time that a lawsuit (like what we've been discussing) could, and probably would, be filed, with the officials sitting on the wrong side of the courtroom with an expensive attorney looking at his watch figuring out billable hours. And I can guarantee that the tournament directors who allowed the earrings (and so instructed the officials) would not be the only names on the lawsuit, I'm pretty sure that the officials would be also named. Why can't the kid sue his stupid parents for stupidly allowing him to wear a stupid earring in a stupid basketball game, organized by stupid tournament directors, and officiated by stupid officials?

If a tournament director were to ask me, as an official, to allow a player to participate with an earring, he would have two choices, don't allow the player to participate, or, "So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, adieu, au revoir, and goodbye".

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP._...=0&w=168&h=164 https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.V...=0&w=188&h=177

I think AAU/AYBT/etc. ball depends on many, many factors and just isn't simply black/white. I have officiated summer ball for about 20 years and have encountered a vast spectrum of issues. I've officiated very small kids to plenty of now-in-the-NBA kids. At some tournaments, this same disparity was 3 courts from each other. Some directors allow officials to wear shorts whereby others require/demand full-length pants. Some are 2-man only while others are 3-man only. Some are really low-level and for fun while others have hundreds of college coaches drooling on the sideline. I think each game is case by case. For big boys, a lot is allowed. For the younger kids, less is allowed. The format usually is a big determining factor too. Some have running clock while others do not. Some have hired tables while others have parents working on a just-before-tip-voluntold basis. Some paid $15/game while others paid $40/game. Some provide 3 meals/day while others provide nothing. Just a huge blanket of differences from one tourney to the next. I will say this though, parents are always the number one negative about any tourney.

EVERYTHING bucky just said. Beautiful picture of the AAU landscape in a nutshell.

And I'm with HokiePaul regarding adapting playcalling to the level of game. Absolutely! Kids vs. adults, boys vs. girls, high school vs. AAU, etc. Anyone who calls all of those exactly the same is not anyone I would want to share a court with.

Then we are not working together. ;)

Because when I have called the game differently as you suggest or there are those that cannot call the game that is in front of them, they often do not get hired. Again was at a camp this weekend and not a single clinician said anything about what level we were calling for a college evaluation. If there was a foul, it was a foul. Nobody said a thing about, "In college, you would do differently." And that has been my experience in going to these kinds of camps. Because the rules for those things are practically identical. You might have things like backcourt, goaltending, basket interference or even where you put the ball in play be different, but everything involving contact is the same. I do not think of the level I work, I just do my job. Worked very well for me for over 20 years. Actually, this position was said by a former mentor of mine that was an NBA official. He said to call the games the exact same too. ;)

Peace

I think you're probably misinterpreting what was stated about adapting play calling to the level. Same goes with how you communicate with players and coaches. The rules on contact might be written the same, but they still require the official to judge a play and rule that contact as legal or not. The level of play and type of game does factor into that judgement call -- at least for me. No two plays are exactly the same. Contact that may be a ruled incidental in one situation may be ruled illegal at another based on numerous factors.

Agree with Hokie in response to Jrut. Respectfully Jrut, I was always taught the opposite at college camps. I recall a D1 Supervisor, standing near a game I was working. They were HS players and kid went to the rack for a layup with some contact. I called a foul and sure enough, soon after the play, he came to me and said to pass on those at the college level. I am not basing everything on just that play as I have been told that and seen it be told to others many times throughout the years. I understand Jrut's point though. Taking the concept and calling all games with same consistency is an argument that certainly can be made. One wouldn't get much flack for doing that.

You are right that no two plays are the same. But again that was not my point either. And it actually IMO gets easier to call when you get older players because their ability is much more defined. But again I do not go into a mindset, "This is a JV game so I need to use different judgment." Now if you do that is fine, but not my issue. That is probably the reason call a lot of girls games because the same idea of what is a foul to me in that game is the same it is in a boys game. That is often not accepted in girls games so I tend to stay away from them wanting a call every time there is contact. But I call a freshman game with the same idea of judgment that I would a Division 3 game. The difference obviously is that the Divison 3 player can likely handle a certain level of contact and keep playing, where a freshman might get rattled. But that could be the case in different Division 3 teams if they are not on the same level of skill.

Peace

OK. It did not happen or such statement was stated this past weekend. The only reference to being a high school official was the mechanics that were used. That was it. Nothing about how we called the game or did not call the game. As a matter of fact, the emphasis on contact near the basket is the exact same thing we are taught at the high school level. Then again one of the same supervisors I work for at the high school level assigns games at the college level (actually that is most of the case where I live). We are never asked to call the game differently for a high school game. What we do got us hired or keeps us on staff.

I went to a college camp last year was the first time I can think of where there was both college players and high school (AAU) players in the same setting (they did not play each other BTW) We were not told at all to do anything different when officiating. If we called a foul on a drive in the AAU game, we were expected to call the same foul with the JUCO players. The JUCO players were clearly bigger and faster but the same concept on how we came to a judgment was the same. And that has been the case well over 10 years I have been attending D1 type camps and that camp was run by a D1 supervisor as well.

Peace

Ability To Handle Contact ...
 

Like JRutledge, I never go into a game with a certain mindset regarding contact, rather, I try to see what the players can handle. Hopefully I can figure it out, and get on the same page with my partner, sooner rather than later.

Girls generally can't handle contact as well as boys, but some girls can, and some boys can't. Younger players generally can't handle contact as well as older players, but some younger players can, and some older players can't.

Watch the players (and listen to the coaches) for the first few minutes and see patterns develop, and then adjust to those patterns, but don't go into the game with any fully formed preconceived notions.

I always have problems going from a Thursday night girls varsity game to a Friday night boys varsity game (but, oddly, no problems with the reverse). After a few minutes I get it all figured out and then its easy peasy lemon squeezy for the remaining three and a half periods.