Why Aren't You On TV?
 

This time of year especially I am always amazed by all the high school, JUCO and lower level college officials who criticize the officials doing the NCAA Tournament, and often times correcting the calls and decisions they make. If you're so good...why aren't you on TV?

I'm too short.

Candidate for one-liner of the year right there.


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Our collection of March trolls indeed criticize. The rest of us prefer the term “evaluate.” Would we do better? Probably not. But we talk about plays in the hopes of *getting* better.

We’re not as good as you give us credit for. [emoji16]


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That's a....low blow. :D

I've worked with 3 Final Four officials during my modest career, and I've worked or camped with a few of the fellas who worked over the last week. They are human, trust me. They occasionally get calls wrong. There are a few folks in here whom I know have better rules knowledge.

Well Played ...
 

I don't now if the Forum presents that award, but we do present a Post O' The Week Award, and a Post O' The Month Award.

UNIgiantslayers's post gets my nomination for both awards.

News, Sports, Weather, Traffic ...
 

I've been told that I have a face that's perfect for radio.

Can't be on TV unless you are part of the network. In addition, there are not enough slots. Also, many fail to meet the minimum requirements by either forgetting or not having the desire. I've seen officials under D1 levels that I thought were better than who is on TV. Mind you, there are not many. The guys on TV are great and they get hundreds of calls/mechanics/rules/etc correct. So many correct, that we cannot post about them. So, we post about the few "mistakes" that we think they make, not in an effort to criticize/embarrass but rather to learn. Learning by the mistakes of others can be very useful. Anyone here going to turn their back to a player? Anyone here going to misinterpret the ball-stuck-in-net situation? Probably not.

/thread

Teddy V not here to defend himself:)

;)I am on TV..just not the channels you are watching;)

And sadly, there won't be a reply to that from the person you're referring to since he got booted after a PM I received.

For one, video availability is highest at this level. That allows us all to look and analyze and learn. Everyone here knows that speed, angles, all have impacts on making calls correct or not. I know I look first to see why the official may have made the right call, not if they missed it. But watching video and trying to improve is one of the tools all officials are encouraged to use. I don't know any official worth a lick that has ever thought they've had a perfect game. Good yes. Great yes. Perfect no. And getting better through criticismand evaluation is part of the deal we all sign up for.
And to answer your question, I had opportunities when I was younger to officiate at the highest levels but determined I would be happier raising a family and not traveling on the road 4-5 nights per week.

Oh Give Me A Home ...
 

Agree. After thirty-seven years, what keeps me going is the search for perfection. Maybe it's unobtainable, but I'm a competitive son of a gun and I strive for the perfect game every night I put on the stripes.

Exactly my situation. I wasn't very excited about traveling throughout New England (and other parts of the Northeast) during the winter months. Driving up to Orono, Maine, or to eastern Pennsylvania, just didn't appeal to me. Time on the road meant time away from my family.

Ok, I'll take the bait.

My guess and/or opinion is that most guys don't have the time and money to go to camp after camp after camp and kiss butt to get on the circuit.

I have the opinion that a number of guys on this website could work NCAA games if they haven't already. I've worked with guys that do lower level college stuff and I believe they could do just as good of a job without the theatrics and "look at me" mechanics of the guys on TV.

While it does indeed take some sort of talent, working NCAA games isn't purely about being a great official. It's about spending absurd amounts of time and money at camps so that you can kiss up and become part of the club. That's how you get in. Even at lower level college games that's what it takes.

It's not that the guys on TV are so great. They miss calls too. Nobody is perfect at officiating.

For that matter, I know some that work small college that just are not very good, yet, they're there. Why? No one knows. Perhaps they spent the most on the assignors camp. I wasn't going to play that game. I was there but I wasn't going to pay the assignor to go to his camp every year for what amounted to about half of the game fees for a year and take 3-4 days off work to do it. I didn't go to it two years in a row and was dropped. He had a LOT of officials on his roster so he could give everyone just a few games and expected them all to come to camp...a pretty good racket if you ask me.

Saying "I didn't want to [go to camp, pay for camp, etc]" as an excuse for why you aren't moving up or never moved up always comes off as bitter, no matter how it's worded.

It's like saying "I didn't want to go to combines, get in the weightroom" when asked why you didn't play college ball. Or "I didn't want to work the small jobs, 60 hours a week" when asked why you didn't make it to the top of your profession.

Being part of "the network" / "having friends" isn't the only way to move up. It works for some, but please stop using it as an excuse of why you haven't/never moved up.

Well said!!!!!

One of the world's biggest legal rackets. You are basically forced to go to expensive camps if you want games.

I have no doubts that everybody can always learn something and get better, but at some point the amount you are paying for these camps and what you are learning don't go hand in hand.

It doesn't have to be an excuse, but rather just an explanation. For many, the investment of time and treasure isn't worth the potential and uncertain reward, and that's fine. Regardless of the merits of the camp racket/system, if that's the requirement to get thru the gate of being considered, for some it's not a price they're willing to pay. Just like I'm an avid home cook and enjoy learning about it and becoming the best amateur chef I can be, but I'm not going to culinary school. This isn't my job, I'm not aiming to switch careers here. Doesn't mean I don't have the talent or ability to do so, just not choosing to try for a whole variety of reasons.

I'm not sure who your comments are directed at. If they are directed at me, this is my response.

I have no interest in doing college because of what it takes to get in. My family time is more important to me than spending a lot of time and money at camps to prove that I know what I'm doing. So.........this is no excuse for never moving up because I have no desire to go higher than high school.

Getting to NCAA D1 level games without the network and going to camps is impossible. Now, once you get there you might be able to stay there without paying for the camps. I have no idea and I will never find out as I have no desire to be part of that. I do know that the college guys in my area had no college games of any kind until they started going to camps ON A REGULAR BASIS. This is fairly low level college stuff too. Once they started spending the money on camps and going every year, they magically started getting calls.

I am perfectly happy doing high school and being the best that I can be at that.

And don't get me wrong...I went to a bunch of camps through the years. Most were great tools to improve and and some advancing. But, in some cases, they're as much of a way to fleece officials for money as they are a camp to train. In the camp I'm referring to, it was a 4 day camp and by the evening on the 3rd day, there were no observers to be found, yet you had that evening and the next day's games you were still expected to officiate. If you wanted to get on and stay on that assignor's roster, you were expected to be there, at least for the first few years....and he did all of the men's D3 and NAIA schools in the region.

Why Aren't You On TV?
 

I can telll you why I didn't pursue it when I was younger. I didn't want to drive 3-5 hours to work in half-empty (or virtually empty for NCAAW) gyms.

Not saying I ever had the talent. But I never really wanted to be more than a HS official. I love HS sports. So much so that I voluntarily left small college baseball and football cause the time-to-joy ratio was too damned high for me. Not to mention the bullshit-to-joy ratio.


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Rich: "I love HS sports."

Amen. I never had the desire to work college, although I did do local, D3 soccer for a while. And I find that working HS, MS--really, youth sports, from 8-18--allows me to be part of the local community. One of the greatest joys I get from officiating is seeing a kid I umpired or refereed for when he/she was 8-9 years old, now playing varsity.

How is it an excuse? It's a reality for a lot of high school officials. Family time, careers, spending money on other things are higher priorities for lots of officials. I got out of it for a couple reasons, and yes, the time, politics, and money were factors. What makes you "holier than thou"?

For the record, I work with a lot of awful partners in high school. But I also work with a few that are FAR better than some of the partners I worked with in my college days. And some of those good partners are like me-they left or cut down on working college for their own reasons.

And let's not pretend like the #1 objective of camps is finding new officials. Camps are, more or less, a moneymaker primarily and a means of finding new talent secondarily. To act like that's not (generally) true is being disingenuous.

I often wondered why someone applying for a job should pay someone for the interview.

Good teaching camps are different.


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The college camp system is most definitely a racket. They take money from 50-75 campers to hire 5-10, and most camps give no type of usable training. Plus the camp coordinator gets paid by the tournament to provide officials. The biggest racket is staff camps for college officials, especially below the D1 level.

When I want training I go to camps that are run by NBA officials. I've been very selective about try-out camps.

Companies need new employees when people leave.

It's rare that a college assigner "needs" new officials.

I am amazed that this system still exists, to be honest. The double dipping just seems wrong. The coordinator is being paid by the conference to evaluate and hire officials, after all.


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NBA types hate the college camp system. And what you just stated is one of the major reasons.

Oh I’m with you. It’s wrong, but as long as assigners and officials are independent contractors (and officials are willing to pay up for a chance to be seen), I don’t see how it will change.

I think we can all agree that nobody is a fan of the current camp system but it is what it is. There is big money available to folks who are able to make it to the division 1 level. When that's the case you have to be willing to do what is necessary to get a job. Invest in yourself. Just like people make a decision to invest in themselves in their normal career. People go to college to earn a degree for the opportunity at a potentially higher paying job. People invest in certifications and classes to move up in their chosen career. Does it suck to have to shell out money for camps year after year? Yes but guess what, I'm going to make that back and more when games get assigned. It's not all politics in this business. Name one part of life that doesn't involve politics. That's just how it goes. If you are in shape, can referee and are a pretty decent human being odds are that you are gonna be given a shot. What you do with it from there is on you.

Make the assigners conference employees. Problem solved?

I have seen HS assigners (with college ties) try to do this with HS games. I couldn't imagine trying to pull this for a game with a $65-$70 payday.


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With Apologies To Arsenio Hall ...
 

Same here, not a lot, but more than one, or two. These are things that make me scratch my head and say, "Hmmm".

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games never let on that they're college guys, but the not very good college guys working high school games can't wait to tell you all about their college assignments?

And how is it that the good college guys working high school games have no problems switching to high school mechanics and signals, but the not very good college guys working high school games refuse to use anything but college mechanics and signals?

Absolutely 100% correct!!!!! I see it all the time!

For the most part, I understand your point. However, college degrees, certs, classes, etc. contain new material. Go to college for 1 year and they teach you new things. Go to college the fourth year and they teach you new things. They do not teach you the same things in your fourth year that they taught you in your first year. Camps essentially do not do it this way. Go to camp your first year and they teach you new things. Go to camp any time after that and, assuming you learned nothing the first year, they teach you the same things. If you learned everything the first time then they teach you nothing new from that point forward. At camps you are simply refining and once mastered, you do not learn anything new. Camps are more about "networking".

Are you a high school official that does college games? or a College Official that does HS games?

Then you're choosing some poor camps. I went to the same camp for a bunch of years as a camper and spent the last couple as a clinician. I learned things that made me better EVERY year. The biggest nugget I learned was as a clinician.

Philosophies change, mechanics and how to take plays change subtlly all the time. If you're not learning anything, it's not a good camp or the clinicians are poor.


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Can you not be both?

Yes you can but I think the point is you get hired to work JUCO and the guy gives you two games does that make you a college official ? I officiate in a few D1 leagues but the reality is that I'm a D2 guy....

Fred Barakat back in the mid - late 80's would give a guy an ACC contract and give a guy 1 non conference game against a D2 team.

There is an official who worked the dance this year, who once asked whether you were on the staff or the roster ??? What he meant was if you work three games your just a U2 on the roster, if you are working every wed / sat then you are on the staff. I strive to be on staffs.....

This is the most important reason to go to camp - it's to stay current. The pace of change may not be fast, but if you let it go for more than a year or two, you're going to be behind and a little out of touch (and maybe more than a little the longer you don't go). Camp's where we start to set the tone for the year to come; it's where we get some common understanding of things that we then all go use in our pregame in the next year, etc. So in pregame, we're not explaining new topics, we're referring back to prior learning.

Last year, my third child was due the week of the camp run by the supervisor in my highest league, and ended up being born (2 weeks late) the weekend of the other major camp in our area. So I didn't go to camp in 2017, and let me tell you: I felt the difference. Just 1 summer of not talking the talk and running the floor with everybody for 1 or 2 weekends, and I could tell I was behind. It worked out fine, but you have to stay current.

I'm likely never going to climb higher than I am today, because the places where I'd get seen by next-level supervisors are places I'm not willing to spend my time, money, or spousal indulgence to go. I'm in no way bothered by that; if I went for it, maybe it'd work out, maybe not, but my choices mean my life isn't cut out for that chase! And that's fine!

But I WILL keep going to camp as long as I'm trying to referee, because the feeling this fall of not having that edge, of not being on top of everything, SUCKED.

What's It Gonna Be Boy ??? (Meat Loaf, 1977) ...
 

Great question. Makes one think.

A Players Viewpoint ...
 

I was a middle school basketball coach for over 25 years. Being a low paid teacher, I coached at players camps in the summer, some run by colleges, some run by high school coaches, some day camps, some overnight camps.

Do the players improve their skills? Not really, you can't do that in a week. Most players are there to impress their high school coach, who encourage their players to attend the camps that they coach at (I know, I was the parent of such a player), a real conflict of interest. College head coaches use these camps to make available extra pay to their assistants, as well as to their college players (apparently legal at the time).

Do the coaches at said camps really care about improving player's skills? No. Coaches can’t wait for the week to end, get paid, and get back to enjoying their summer.

Working at such camps always left a bad taste in my mouth. I finally stopped working at them, and made my summer money tending bar at a local golf course.

I use pretty much the same exact mechanics and signals that I use working college games as I do when I work high school games. There are not even that many differences other than what you describe as a foul.

The problem is that people that watch college often have no idea what the books say either way.

Peace

Yeah, there really aren't that many differences between men's college and high school in terms of mechanics or signaling. The biggest difference is going opposite versus tableside, and I've never worked with a college guy that tried to pull that stunt.

Foul reporting? In high school most states want you to hustle and come to a stop, which is exactly what the CCA manual requires. Now that high school uses two hands, that's one less difference there, too.

If I work with a college guy that wants to use the "walled up" signal or some other non-NFHS auxiliary signal, or does some minor variation from what's explicitly spelled out in the NFHS Manual, that really doesn't bother me. Not sure why some officials get so worked up about it that they ignore the fact that some of the college officials working high school are great partners.

The best officials I work with are guys that have college experience. Why? Because they will not be shy to call hand-checking and other freedom of movement fouls, be aware of the clock and often use common sense when applying rules. Not to say that there are high school only officials that are not very good, but many of them have only a perspective that is limited if they never attended a college camp or got outside of their comfort zone.

And what is so funny, all my career I see high school officials use signals that are not in the book. Heck, I can hardly find a single high school official that signals a team control foul properly, but we get upset if an official uses a signal that actually describes the foul that took place every now an then. We are funny sometimes.

Peace

Wait so just because we don’t work that level we can’t be critical (for the intention of bettering ourselves) of those who work that level? Get outta here.

Yeah, you can be critical, but if you were so perfect you would be there too. And there is a way to be critical. You can say that the official made a mistake without telling us how much better you would have done.

Peace

And the college officials I work with are much more likely to handle business. Whereas some of my partners wouldn't warn or whack a coach if their lives depended on it.

If the NFHS would approve more signals that actually demonstrate what happened on a play, all the bitching and hypocrisy about using "unauthorized" signals would go away.

Totally agree. And it is often this arrogance of "purity" that is the problem.

Peace

Its 2018 . . . who wants to be on TV. What you really want is streamable/capturable moment that can be easily imbedded shared and then turn into a meme. Does anyone even watch games on TV anymore? Who wants to do or watch anything that takes more than 5 minutes of my time anyway . . .

Seriously though.

I think JRut is bang on. Whether its games at different levels, regions, etc. We could talk officials who do college and hs or officials who do rural and urban. In those cases they just have a broader experience base to draw on and more opportunities to see, learn and develop a better sense of the game. Guys who do 1 level, 1 region, 1 style etc for most or their entire careers can still be good officials, but have to overcome that lack of exposure and experience to be.

In HS games, I signal whatever I need to communicate what happened. I will use a 'hit to the head" signal and "arm bar" signal when doing HS games. I definitely have a rep for handling business, especially with players.

I have found that folks who don't know HS rules aren't much better with college rules. You're either a rules guy, or you are not. One thing I never do is discuss college rules when doing HS pre-games; just causing confusion IMO. I don't like when partners bring up something from college games that have nothing do with HS games.

In some places officials who use those signals can't overcome the powers-that-be who only want "approved" signals.

Agree on the second point. Although just as a general point (not directed at you because I know you're a rules guy), it frustrates me when officials pass off not knowing the rules as "I'm not a rules guy." For me, it's code for "I'm too lazy or too arrogant to study the rules."

I have had guys force a discussion of college rules because there are those that do not know the damn difference. Like when guys try to shoot the Ts out of order or go to POI on a single technical foul. So if you do not tell them, "That is a college rule" and "We are doing a high school rule" then you might have more of an argument. This happens a ton in football where the rules are vastly different, but in basketball, it is not as common.

Peace

Who exactly is doing that though?

I can live with that. I was sitting in on a post-game "post mortem" once where another guy offered this criticism: "You signaled push, but it was a hold."

To me, that's an absurd focus on something relatively trivial, in the big scheme of things.

Giving the wrong signal, or a signal that does not fit/describe the actual type of foul that took place is not trivial.

ok.

That's a completely different issue than what I was referring to. Both "push" and "hold" are signals in NFHS. You shouldn't use one when what happened was actually the other. (And when you run into a smart coach and use the wrong signal, he/she will say "that's not what happened" and be right.)

I'm referring to officials being criticized for using a signal that shows exactly what happened on the play even though it's not one of the signals in the book (e.g. "hit to the head").

You are right, a different issue, but related. What I meant to suggest is an over-emphasis on signals, instead of the more important question: did the ref get the call right?

There are many more signals now than when I started. It's just my opinion, but I don't think officiating has necessarily been improved by that proliferation or by the mechanical application of mechanics. I also think that kind of micro-management makes the game harder to officiate. I've heard guys get dinged for signaling fouls with their fist facing the "wrong" way. That's ridiculous, in my book, as silly as dinging someone for signaling "hit on the head."

I acknowledge that I'm probably a minority--maybe a minority of one. I work hard, I hustle, I'm pretty good on the rules. If I use the wrong signal or mimic a foul with an unauthorized gesture, I still call a pretty good game.

I would say that's important. You need to accurately describe the infraction.

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Education ...
 

Yes, from the little I know about college signals, they can be better than high school signals in describing what really happened.

And if the only thing going on was to get the game officiated properly (as if the game were officiated in a bubble), it wouldn't really matter what mechanics and signals one used, as long as the officials are in good position to make the calls, that the calls are correct, and the calls are communicated correctly to players, partner, coaches, table, and fans.

The reason why my local IAABO board wants only high school mechanics and signals is that IAABO is primarily a basketball officiating educational organization. The education of new official doesn't end when they pass the rules and mechanics tests.

For learning purposes, we require subvarsity officials to stay and observe the varsity officials in the varsity game. The better, and quicker, they learn the proper mechanics and signals, the quicker they will move up in the ranks (of course, mechanics and signals aren't the end all, they also have to demonstrate other things, rules knowledge, game management, advantage/disadvantage, hustle, etc.). They are rated by observers, and one portion of the rating is on their mechanics ("Utilizes proper mechanics, up-to-date techniques and procedures as detailed in the IAABO Officials Manual." ). New officials observing a varsity game can become confused if an official, especially a highly rated official, uses college mechanics and signals (or even worse, college rules) in a high school game.

Learning is easier, and probably better, if these young'uns see consistent mechanics and signals, from one high school game to the next high school game, and from one high school official to the next high school official. It also helps a lot if what these young'uns see is the same as what's in the written IAABO mechanics manual (which is what they studied), as well as the same as what they've been taught in the mechanics classes. Consistency is the key, deviations from one accepted way (even if not the best way) to do things can be misleading, and confusing, to learners.

I know a lot about learning, I've got thirty-plus years of award winning middle school teaching under my belt.

What would be an example of a signal that is "not in the book" at the high school level? I typically give "by the book" signals, and then say what exactly happened (e.g. arm bar) and an additional signal, if needed to clarify. AFAIK, it isn't too difficult to give a team control foul signal (fist up to stop the clock, then punch in the direction where the fouling team came from).

About camps, what type are typically available in your area? Are they more tryout or teaching camps? I'm looking to go to a three-man teaching camp in Annapolis this June, and possibly to the Level One Basketball Officials Camp in August in DC (Que'z Crawford runs that camp). I might go to college-specific tryout camps in the future, when I have varsity games under my belt.

If you are searching for the best teaching camp in the area, I suggest Sean Hull's camp...he has one at U of M abd one at Towson. PM ME and I will get you his xontact info. Quez's in August is also a good choice.

Although I will go along, I never understood the use of many signals. I have discussed this. Some signals are clearly necessary, offensive foul but others seem like a waste of time, specifically those surrounding defensive fouls. The fist in the air indicates illegal contact, period. Why is it necessary to signal a hold? Push? Handcheck? Etc? Some yes, but not a majority. Maybe just an irritation point for me. Speaking of signals, when was the last time you saw an official give the correct signal for illegal use of hands? I can't recall one. Oh, and as far as NCAA refs, what is the deal with the bent-elbows-fists-near-center-of-chest-and-then-extend-fist-out signal? I have seen it in the NBA and in college and it seems silly to me. Don't believe that is an approved signal. Correct me if wrong.

Easy. There are signals like arm-bar (which you referenced), hooking, not vertical signal, walling up, two-hands or hit on the arm.

Also, a lot of people do not give the team control foul in the proper sequence or do not give the preliminary at all when they make such a call.

All camps are try-outs for someone. All camps teach things too. There is no one versus the other that I can tell. The level might affect how much those things apply, but you can learn and try out all at the same time.

Peace

People are not stupid. If they can show the actual foul that is better than showing them a "push" when they used their knee in the back. All these signals can be disputed. I use them mostly when I am officiating high school games, but I use my voice. But the problem is not everyone hears you speak (especially in loud gyms). And if it is so confusing, then why do college officials have little issues giving more signals? That is just lame excuse to stay in the stone ages. Things change and so does officiating. I have even heard IAABO complain that football uses the same signals. But football the signal has a specific penalty and the signal can be the difference between a 10-yard penalty and a 15-yard penalty enforced at the succedding spot. There are no such signal requirements other than a team control or player control foul that does not shoot FTs. And we never give the signal for what they did in a PC foul.

Peace

I think this is correct but for me personally I try to use the approved signals first reporting and then use "unapproved signals" if I feel like that may help in any sense. The two cases that come to mind are as mentioned hit to the head and tripping. There is no mechanic to my knowledge to indicate the player was tripped so I generally signal block at the table and then say he was tripped and may signal or point to foot. It doesn't make sense that you are reporting the same foul when a player sticks his leg out and trips an opponent as when a defender slides into the offense or gives a hip bump. Probably not perfectly correct by the book but at least I can say that I reported the foul using approved signals, I just also used unapproved signals.

In terms of what foul is reported at the table it is most important to get the call right, but I think you lose credibility if you report something that clearly didn't happen. If you have a close block/charge then go report a hold or hit I think that the coach doesn't have as much faith in your call despite how correct it may be.

I would say when I started I did not consider myself a "rules guy" but this forum has helped tremendously. I would rate myself above the median referee in terms of rules knowledge now, and probably well below the median for referees on this forum.

+1111111111111111111111111111111111111. Great post.

There are many guys on this site that act like they would know better than those in the more high profile situations. And that is not reserved for just D1 or the NCAA Tournament. They might not say the exact words, but they always act like they can point out ever mistake of others but never seem to admit the kinds of things they might not do very well.

Peace

Go ahead and make your own decision, but I would respectfully disagree with Multiple Sports about Sean Hull's camp (at least the Towson one). I went in 2014 and I left with a mostly bad impression. One of the guest speakers was cool (NFL white hat), but it was a lot of games (racket) and some of the clinicians were downright rude. One of them even downgraded me for not going to the arrow on a clearly POI situation. The clinician and one of my partners clearly didn't know the rule, and I ended up looking bad for it. It took every ounce of my soul not to be a "yeah but'er" at that moment. Right then and there I knew I'd never go back to that camp.

I wasn't a Baltimore area official at the time; I went to the camp looking for some JUCO visibility that I could perhaps parlay into some work closer to my area in Tidewater, VA. Didn't find it. There was a Pennsylvania JUCO guy there as a clinician, but other than that it seemed like the camp was mainly geared at Baltimore area HS officials who needed to pay their dues for schedule purposes. So if that's you, so be it. But you are forewarned.

I went to Sean's camp years ago at Mount St. Mary's. I had a better experience than you had and I've even ended working games since then with guys who were observers. But, yes, those B-more/DC guys can tend to be cliquish.

And as I've mentioned plenty of times here and on FB, there are a lot of college guys (way too many) who simply don't know the rules that well. And it is worse with older guys, especially observers, b/c they are not going to listen to someone whom they don't know.

If you want a GREAT teaching camp, go to a camp that is run by NBA guys. Joey Crawford and Mike Callahan run Next Level camp every year at Villanova the week after Father's Day. It is short, but fruitful, and not as expensive as most camps.