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-   -   Block/Charge Final Second Final 4 (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103650-block-charge-final-second-final-4-a.html)

sdoebler Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:26pm

Block/Charge Final Second Final 4
 
<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This was the game deciding play <br>Pueblo West 54<br>Lewis Palmer 56<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/copreps?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#copreps </a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/4Afinal4?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#4Afina l4</a> <a href="https://t.co/QdzVFniABS">pic.twitter.com/QdzVFniABS</a></p>&mdash; BasketballColorado (@Bball_CO) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bball_CO/status/972267116912050176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


https://twitter.com/Bball_CO/status/972267116912050176

sdoebler Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:29pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=zyWZbYb99po

Here is a (poor angle) baseline video starting at ~:28.

For reference the score was white 56 black 54 at the time of this play, the clocked stopped at .1 with the whistle.

MechanicGuy Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:33pm

Man...I don't know. On multiple looks, I think it's either a block or a no-call. The baseline view shows the defended leaning to his right to make contact.

Given the time and score, I think a no-call is defensible.

deecee Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:35pm

I had a no call. Didn't look like a lot of contact and was more flop than anything. The fact that the defender fell straight down was a clear giveaway.

He would be getting the "get up" signal from me with a rolled eyeball or two.

AremRed Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:53pm

No call for me.

Pantherdreams Mon Mar 12, 2018 01:27pm

Defense doesn't do anything wrong there, but definitely not enough to warrant a PC call on offense.

crosscountry55 Mon Mar 12, 2018 03:00pm

That's super tough. The L is damned if he makes a call and damned if he doesn't. Probably a little less damned if he doesn't.

The second angle appeared to show block, but then you go back to the first angle and you don't see any movement toward the shooter at contact and we were looking almost directly perpendicular to the play. That means the defender's movement to the right must have been no more than lateral (i.e. legal).

I guess my only question is if L could have been in a better position to see the play? But that's nit-picking.

If you no-call there and the shot is missed, Black will cry block, but at the end of the day, if the ball handler tries to go through instead of up, he accepts the associated risks of that decision (including putting the game result at the discretion of an official's call or no-call). So I'm going no call here. As it turned out, ball went in, so the no call would have resulted in OT and everyone is probably satisfied. Hindsight is 20/20.

Raymond Mon Mar 12, 2018 03:09pm

Definitely not going PC on this play. I would like to think I would no-call this.

JRutledge Mon Mar 12, 2018 03:13pm

I do not have a lot of opposition to the call based on the angle. It looks like not as much contact, but I do not see what the defender did wrong. I guess I would have to have a closer angle or different angle to be for sure.

The official is in much better position than we are across the court to know for sure.

Peace

Chuga Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:21pm

No player control foul on this play. I would hope that I would no whistle on this play. Defender appeared to flop to me.

pizanno Tue Mar 13, 2018 03:23pm

Closed look?
 
While in lead's primary, looks to me he has a closed look at point of contact. Trail likely had best view of shooter slipping by defender and could've come in with secondary cadence, if needed.

Team down by two, I'm thinking to myself "has to be obvious, has to be obvious..." Let play develop. Late is great.

Paintguru Tue Mar 13, 2018 04:53pm

Only watched once, but I'd go no call as well.

Terrapins Fan Tue Mar 13, 2018 06:42pm

Good call based on 1st video.

No call based on 2nd video.

Rich Tue Mar 13, 2018 09:43pm

I'd like a no call. The one thing I don't like is a PC foul.

The word "flop" is thrown around way too much...by officials.

RedAndWhiteRef Wed Mar 14, 2018 07:50am

Definitely nothing. Looks like this ref just wanted to GTFO.

Not sure how you can have a block here.

Rich Wed Mar 14, 2018 07:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedAndWhiteRef (Post 1018896)
Definitely nothing. Looks like this ref just wanted to GTFO.



Not sure how you can have a block here.



Eh, the defender leans into the airborne shooter. Likely not enough for me to put a whistle on it, but if anything, this is a block.


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MechanicGuy Wed Mar 14, 2018 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedAndWhiteRef (Post 1018896)
Definitely nothing. Looks like this ref just wanted to GTFO.

Not sure how you can have a block here.

Let's not impugn the motives of an official based on a questionable call.

ballgame99 Wed Mar 14, 2018 09:36am

LOL at the kid taking a shot at the ref in post game interview. How about you pull up and shoot a bank shot and not force a call?

I would like to think I would no call this.

so cal lurker Wed Mar 14, 2018 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicguy (Post 1018903)
let's not impugn the motives of an official based on a questionable call.

+1

MechanicGuy Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 1018905)
LOL at the kid taking a shot at the ref in post game interview. How about you pull up and shoot a bank shot and not force a call?

I would like to think I would no call this.

The kid's season just ended, I'm cutting him some slack for that comment. And I'm definitely not going to INSULT the kid for making what most here agree was a legal play.

TopicalTropical Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:37pm

yeah people are tired at the end and emotional. If that call was made in the first half no one really would have cared much. I thought it was a charge at first as the defender got there in time, but upon further review was there enough contact? Doesn't look like it but not the best videos to tell for certain.

My first choice is no call. I would not have called a block.

walt Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:40pm

I'd like to think I'd no call this. I've been told at a number of camps, "watch how the defender falls." To me, the offensive player doesn't go to and through the defender. The defender does nothing wrong. Is there contact initiated by the offense, yes but it sure looks like he is trying to avoid going into and through the defender. Again, I'd like to think I'd no call this. What we also don't know is if the crew had put whistles on similar plays like that throughout the game. That makes a difference and is information we don't have. That is a tough one.

IncorrectCall Wed Mar 14, 2018 03:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by walt (Post 1018920)
I'd like to think I'd no call this. I've been told at a number of camps, "watch how the defender falls." To me, the offensive player doesn't go to and through the defender. The defender does nothing wrong. Is there contact initiated by the offense, yes but it sure looks like he is trying to avoid going into and through the defender. Again, I'd like to think I'd no call this. What we also don't know is if the crew had put whistles on similar plays like that throughout the game. That makes a difference and is information we don't have. That is a tough one.

A good philosophy in most cases, but not all cases. Slip play: Defender standing legally in a space for 10 seconds, offensive player tries to side step him, contact is shoulder to shoulder. Players' bodies go opposite directions. Can't be a defensive foul.

walt Fri Mar 16, 2018 07:25am

Totally agree. I have called many a PC foul where the contact by the offensive player is on the shoulder area and not center mass. Makes me crazy when coaches, fans, players, and sadly, some officials say he/she has to take the hit in the chest in order to draw a PC foul. In this particular play, as I wrote, I'd like to believe I would no call it.

ilyazhito Fri Mar 16, 2018 09:56pm

Correct call. The offensive player made contact with the torso of a defender in legal guarding position. This may not look good, but it is a correct call for a player control foul.

chapmaja Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:01pm

I see two potential issues on this play. First, before he gets to the secondary defender it appears (from the baseline video), that the primary defender puts his knee into the offensive player as he goes by. Should this have been called a block, before the block/charge/ no call issue ever came up.

As for the call. I would likely have gone no call on this play given that the defender does appear to lean a tiny bit sideways at the moment of contact. I certainly don't see enough to indicate that it was a PC foul. I think a case could also be made that when the offensive player left his feet, the defender was still attaining LGP, but again it is so close, at that point of the game, I would be keeping the whistle silent. I don't see a clear cut foul in that situations of the game. Depending on how the game was going earlier, maybe I have something earlier, but I certainly don't see enough on the final play to make a call there.

SC Official Mon Apr 08, 2019 06:18am

Why are you reviving a year-old thread?

chapmaja Mon Apr 08, 2019 08:10am

I posted on a thread that was with the other threads on my screen. I did not even look at the date of the thread.

thedewed Mon Apr 08, 2019 08:21am

great example of how a block/charge collision can be a no call under the rules. If the player is there waiting, but the driver gets by with minimal contact, a no call much of the time is right. that's what I'd have there,


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