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-   -   NFHS 5.2.1C vs. NCAA-W A.R. 113 (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103596-nfhs-5-2-1c-vs-ncaa-w-r-113-a.html)

Freddy Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:04pm

NFHS 5.2.1C vs. NCAA-W A.R. 113
 
Situation #1) A1, from behind the 3 point arc, throws a pass to A2 that strikes B2 who is standing inside the 3 point arc and then goes through the basket.

Situation #2) A1, from behind the 3 point arc, throws a pass that strikes A2 who is standing inside the 3 point arc and then goes through the basket.


QUESTION A: Is it correct that NCAA-W and NFHS differ as to the number of points awarded in the above situations?


QUESTION B: Are these the relevant casebook references to the issue expressed above?

NCAA-W:
A.R. 113. A1ís throw (pass) from behind the three-point line is deflected while in flight by:
(1) B1; or
(2) A2, both of whom are located inside the three-point line.
RULING: (1) When a ball thrown (passed) in the direction of the
basket from behind the three-point line with the possibility of entering the basket from above is deflected by a defender, a three point
goal shall be counted. However, if there is no possibility of the
ball entering the basket from above and the deflection caused the goal
to be successful, a two-point goal shall be counted.
(2) When a thrown (passed) ball is deflected by a teammate and the
goal is successful, two points shall be awarded.
When a passed ball hits the ring and does not enter the basket, there
is no reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 5-1.1, 5-1.2.a and 5-1.3 and .4)

NFHS:
5.2.1 SITUATION C
A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket.
RULING
In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Nevadaref Wed Feb 28, 2018 01:13am

The rulings look the same to me.
What do you believe is different?

TopicalTropical Wed Feb 28, 2018 02:18am

(2) When a thrown (passed) ball is deflected by a teammate and the
goal is successful, two points shall be awarded.


In NCAA W, if a deflection from a pass outside the 3 point line that hits A2 who is also outside the 3 point line it will be a 2 pointer? Has anyone ever had a situation with a deflected pass beyond the 3 point line that goes in?


I'm a bit confused on the NCAA W rule. Sounds like an alley-oop type play?

Raymond Wed Feb 28, 2018 08:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1017941)
The rulings look the same to me.
What do you believe is different?

You may want to reread the rulings. ;)

bob jenkins Wed Feb 28, 2018 08:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1017929)

RULING: (1) When a ball thrown (passed) in the direction of the
basket from behind the three-point line with the possibility of entering the basket from above is deflected by a defender, a three point
goal shall be counted. However, if there is no possibility of the
ball entering the basket from above
and the deflection caused the goal
to be successful, a two-point goal shall be counted.

While the NFHS rule does NOT contain that specific language, it's a reasonable way to rule under both codes.

If the ball has a chance to go in (and be liberal on this interp -- favoring the offense), then we don't really know whether it's a "try" or a "pass" until we see what happens next. So, score thre epoints if the defense touches the ball.

If the ball does not have a chance to go in, then either the try has ended or it's a pass -- score two points.

wyo96 Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1017952)
While the NFHS rule does NOT contain that specific language, it's a reasonable way to rule under both codes.

Not to be argumentative, but does the casebook give us that authority? I read it that even if it is without a doubt a pass from behind the arc that is deflected by the defense, we must award 3 points. "A1 throws the ball"

I believe your reasoning is a better rule, just not sure that it what it says. Am I missing something?

Camron Rust Wed Feb 28, 2018 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyo96 (Post 1017961)
Not to be argumentative, but does the casebook give us that authority? I read it that even if it is without a doubt a pass from behind the arc that is deflected by the defense, we must award 3 points. "A1 throws the ball"

I believe your reasoning is a better rule, just not sure that it what it says. Am I missing something?

Yes, it does.

Quote:

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1ís three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)
While not the same, this case makes it clear that when the ball ceased to have a chance to go in, it no longer is to be counted as 3 points when it is deflected such that it goes in.

Freddy Wed Feb 28, 2018 03:55pm

I8j
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1017972)
Yes, it does.

While not the same, this case makes it clear that when the ball ceased to have a chance to go in, it no longer is to be counted as 3 points when it is deflected such that it goes in.

Yes, 4.41.4 pertains to a three point attempt. However the text of 5.2.1 seems clearly to apply to a "thrown ball", vis a vis a "pass", as distinguished from a three point attempt:

5.2.1. A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket.
RULING. In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

This distinction seems valid also according to 5-2-1:
A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Note that 5-2-1 specifically makes a distinction between a three point attempt and a throw, and it, not insignificantly, lacks any reference to the defender or opponent. This leaves room for this situation to be, in NFHS, to be 3 points......
Situation #1) A1, from behind the 3 point arc, throws a pass to A2 that strikes B2 who is standing inside the 3 point arc and then goes through the basket.

RULING:

Right?

billyu2 Wed Feb 28, 2018 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1017952)
While the NFHS rule does NOT contain that specific language, it's a reasonable way to rule under both codes.

If the ball has a chance to go in (and be liberal on this interp -- favoring the offense), then we don't really know whether it's a "try" or a "pass" until we see what happens next. So, score thre epoints if the defense touches the ball.

If the ball does not have a chance to go in, then either the try has ended or it's a pass -- score two points.

Agree. ďIt ainít what it is until it is what it ainít.Ē

BillyMac Wed Feb 28, 2018 06:09pm

It Could Happen, It Could ...
 
NFHS: A1, behind the three point arc, attempts a three point shot attempt, but the ball slips through his sweaty hands and ends up being a line drive attempt. The ball hits screening teammate A2, also behind the three point arc, in the back of the head, the ball ricochets into the air, untouched by any other players, and ends up going into Team A's basket. You make the call.

Easier question: What happens if the horn sounds to end the period after the ball ricochets off A2's head but before the ball enters the basket?

wyo96 Wed Feb 28, 2018 06:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1017972)
Yes, it does.



While not the same, this case makes it clear that when the ball ceased to have a chance to go in, it no longer is to be counted as 3 points when it is deflected such that it goes in.

Thanks for the reference to the case play.
If you only read the rule, you would not come to the same conclusion.

Camron Rust Wed Feb 28, 2018 08:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1017987)
I8j

Yes, 4.41.4 pertains to a three point attempt. However the text of 5.2.1 seems clearly to apply to a "thrown ball", vis a vis a "pass", as distinguished from a three point attempt:

5.2.1. A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket.
RULING. In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

This distinction seems valid also according to 5-2-1:
A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Note that 5-2-1 specifically makes a distinction between a three point attempt and a throw, and it, not insignificantly, lacks any reference to the defender or opponent. This leaves room for this situation to be, in NFHS, to be 3 points......
Situation #1) A1, from behind the 3 point arc, throws a pass to A2 that strikes B2 who is standing inside the 3 point arc and then goes through the basket.

RULING:

Right?

No. Not right. Need to understand the intent and purpose of that rule. The whole purpose and intent of that rule is to remove the decision of intent of the thrower....shot or pass...when the ball is thrown at the basket and it goes in.

The cases and rules are generally written with a simple, basic case under consideration without complication.

The implication in the "thrown" ball that goes is is just that...a ball that is thrown and goes in without anything else complicating it. They left some room for a touch by a defender at the point of release but, with the phrase "continues in flight", it is implied that the flight of the ball to the basket is largely unchanged.

If it leaves the hands on a path that appears to be going to the basket and it goes in, even if tipped by the defender on the way to the basket, count it as 3. That rule was never intended to make a pass that was clearly not going in into 3 points because a defender batted it in. A ball that is thrown in a direction where it is clearly not going in ceases to qualify for the purpose of the thrown ball rule. The action that put it in the basket is the deflection itself, not the original thrown.

Nevadaref Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1017950)
You may want to reread the rulings. ;)

Ok, please explain to me what is different in the two posted rulings.
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