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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 04:51pm
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Substitution Play.

I do not know how many members of the Forum are on Facebook, but I do know that Mark, Jr., at least three esteemed members of our Forum (and active in the Forum), as well as myself are on Facebook and we all belong to a number of Basketball groups on Facebook. Being that Mark, Jr., is a full-time engineering student, our three esteemed members are young enough to be still gainfully employed, and I am the retired old geezer, I have the time to spend all day on Facebook, LOL, I get to read a number of plays on Facebook that we do not see here in the Forum. That said I am alarmed at the mindset of some of our brothers and sisters in Black and White (I am jealous of the guys and gals who work in states that allow gray, but I digress).


The following play was posted last night in one of groups in which I am a member:

Girls' H.S. Varsity; Three-Person Crew; three seconds left in the 4th QT of a three point game. I do not know which Team was leading: H or V; do I not if the C was Table Side or Opposite the Table; nor do I know which team had the Ball in its Front Court but based upon the description of the Play I am making an educated assumption that it is the Visitor's that have the Ball in its Front Court.

PLAY: The Ball goes Out-of-Bounds on the End Line and the L signals Team V's Ball. The T sounds his whistle indicating that he wants to conference with the L, as this is happening, H-HC sends Substitute H6 to the Scorer's Table to report in for H1 and is beckoned onto the Court. H6 is now a Player and H1 is now a Substitute. The L then changes his call to Team H's Ball. Apparently, H-HC substituted H6 for H1 because H1 is Team H's star player and has four fouls, and H-HC did not want to risk H1 committing a 5th Foul while on Defense. But since Team H is now going to receive that Ball for a Throw-in H-HC wants to put H1 back in the game. The Officials do not allow the substitution, and H-HC argues with such vigor that he receives a DTF for Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

The Poster of the Play then goes on to say: "We know the Center should not have beckoned in the substitute until the Lead and Trail were done discussing [the Out-of-bounds situation] but it happen[ed]." I do not agree with his statement in red, but will be discussed later in this thread.

The Poster then said: "I have heard the following as ways to handle: 1) the refs followed rule 3.4 [NFHS R3-S3-A4] on subs and were correct, or 2) the refs should have used rule 2.3 [NFHS R2-S3] on refs authority."


My position is that the Officials were doing what they were supposed to be doing: The L and T discussed the OoB while the C beckoned H6 into the game to replace H1 while observing the Players on the Court. Team H is given a Designated Spot Throw-in on the End Line with H6 in the game.

I was shocked at the number of officials who stated that they would allow H1 replace H6 before the Throw-in despite NFHS R3-S3-A4 and the excuses that they gave for ignoring the Rule.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 05:13pm
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Substitution Play.

Well, add me to the list of people that would allow them to undo the sub.

Spirit and intent count for something. The coach made a decision based on a situation that changed through no fault of anyone.


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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 05:24pm
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What's the harm in just slowing down and not beckoning the sub in until the discussion is over and we know who's getting the ball? There's no rule saying you have to beckon them in the instant they're ready to come in - if you see your partners talking about something (which will almost always be immediate), just hold on till they're done. Why would you disagree with that part, which can keep you from even getting into this situation?
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 05:59pm
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Baseball has a rule to the effect that "the official shall rectify any situation when a call is reversed that places a team at a disadvantage."

I'm applying the same concept here.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Well, add me to the list of people that would allow them to undo the sub.

Spirit and intent count for something. The coach made a decision based on a situation that changed through no fault of anyone.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrounge View Post
What's the harm in just slowing down and not beckoning the sub in until the discussion is over and we know who's getting the ball? There's no rule saying you have to beckon them in the instant they're ready to come in - if you see your partners talking about something (which will almost always be immediate), just hold on till they're done. Why would you disagree with that part, which can keep you from even getting into this situation?

I am going to address Rich's comment first.


Rich:

V-HC knows that H6 has legally entered the game and that H1 cannot reenter the game until the next opportunity to substitute after the Clock has started. How do you explain to V-HC that you are going to ignore R3-S3-A4 because you want to be "fair" to H-HC. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that at the very least: a) That on the morning of the next school day V-HC will be on the telephone with his StateHSAA's office wanting to know why the Officials in his game knowingly allowed an opponent's substitute to illegally return to the game which will require you to explain (n conversation that I would not to have) to your StateHSAA office why you ignored R3-S3-A4, or b) besides everything in (a) happening, V-HC is also going to argue with such vigor that he will commit a TF for Unsportsmanlike Conduct.


Scrounge:

The Ball has gone OoB and is not not yet at the disposal of the Thrower. A Substitute is ready to enter the game. What Rule tells you to not beckon the Substitute into the game? There is no reason to delay beckoning H6 into the game, nor is there a Rule that says you can delay beckoning H6 into the game in this circumstance.


MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 06:06pm
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See Bob's post.

I would do exactly what I said. I'd be happy to have that conversation with the visiting coach, the state office, and anyone else who wanted to have it.


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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 06:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Baseball has a rule to the effect that "the official shall rectify any situation when a call is reversed that places a team at a disadvantage."

I'm applying the same concept here.

Bob:

1) To quote Mark, Jr.: "This ain't baseball."

2) That kind of decision cannot be supported by Rule. And then you will be in the same situation in which Rich would find himself with his StateHSAA when V-HC complains to the StateHSAA.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 06:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Scrounge:

The Ball has gone OoB and is not not yet at the disposal of the Thrower. A Substitute is ready to enter the game. What Rule tells you to not beckon the Substitute into the game? There is no reason to delay beckoning H6 into the game, nor is there a Rule that says you can delay beckoning H6 into the game in this circumstance.
The official should know (or be able to reasonably guess) that (a) the other officials are discussing who gets the ball, and (b) it's a "situational sub." It's not going to delay anything to wait to see the result of (a) before bringing the player in.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 06:16pm
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Any time the refs screw up administratively, spirit/intent definitely trump the rules. Any time there is a conference, the other ref should wait before doing anything. The other ref should have knowledge of the conference too as far as what is being discussed. If the other ref does not wait, then stuff like this happens. Not the worst thing in the world but when stuff like this does indeed happen, then spirit/intent are logical. Can't imagine anyone arguing against it either.
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Last edited by bucky; Sat Feb 24, 2018 at 06:29pm.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 06:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post

My position is that the Officials were doing what they were supposed to be doing: The L and T discussed the OoB while the C beckoned H6 into the game to replace H1 while observing the Players on the Court. Team H is given a Designated Spot Throw-in on the End Line with H6 in the game.

I was shocked at the number of officials who stated that they would allow H1 replace H6 before the Throw-in despite NFHS R3-S3-A4 and the excuses that they gave for ignoring the Rule.

MTD, Sr.
The officials huddled because one of them made an apparent mistake. Not sure that officials are "supposed to be" making mistakes.

You indicated being shocked for a rule being ignored. Huh? Officials ignore rules all the time, ergo my tagline. I would hazard to bet that every official ignores at least one rule during every game.

Anyway, this situation, involving an official's mistake/miscommunication, is not covered by the rules and 2.3 can easily be used. I agree with Rich in that explaining this to an assignor or state office would be welcomed/easy.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 10:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post


Scrounge:

The Ball has gone OoB and is not not yet at the disposal of the Thrower. A Substitute is ready to enter the game. What Rule tells you to not beckon the Substitute into the game? There is no reason to delay beckoning H6 into the game, nor is there a Rule that says you can delay beckoning H6 into the game in this circumstance.


MTD, Sr.

Yea, well...there's no rule saying I can't, either. Really, this shouldn't be more than a few seconds while the other two straighten out who has the ball. Till then? I'm holding the sub.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 10:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Baseball has a rule to the effect that "the official shall rectify any situation when a call is reversed that places a team at a disadvantage."

I'm applying the same concept here.

For those who are not baseball umpires, NFHS Baseball R10-S2-A3l states: "[The Umpire's-in-Chief] duties include those listed in R10-S2-A1, R10-S2-A2, and rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage."

NFHS Baseball R10-S2-A3l is really applicable to an extremely small set of situations which I would venture to say is almost 100% Live Ball situations. The best example of these situations is:

NFHS Baseball Casebook 10.2.3 Situation H: "With a count of three balls and two strikes on B2 and R1 on first base, the batter takes what appears to be a half swing. The plate umpire calls ball four and R1, upon hearing ball four, then trots to second base. The catcher throws the ball to F4 who tags R1 before he reaches base. The catcher asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire to see if B2 did, in fact, attempt to hit the pitch. The base umpire indicates that the batter did swing at the ball. RULING: The plate umpire will declare the batter out and return R1 to first base. The umpire-in-chief can rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed a base runner in jeopardy."

One will notice that in Baseball CB Play 10.2.3 Sit. H the Base Runner was put at a disadvantage while the Ball was Live. That is the essence of Baseball R10-S2-A3l, the disadvantage occurs while the Ball is Live.

Rarely, in Basketball does the Official's whistle cause the Ball to become Dead. Something has occurred that causes the Ball to become Dead the Official sounds his whistle to stop play so that a TO Request can be granted, or to recognize that a Violation or Foul has occurred.

In the Play that we are discussing I would ask "you" a couple of questions:

1) How Team H was put at a disadvantage by the L reversing his OoB call? L's original call gave the Ball to Team V and with him changing his call to give the Ball to Team H it could be argued that him changing his call put Team V at a disadvantage.

2) If the Original Play occurred with 0:30.0 left in the 1st QT, would "you" grant H-HC's request to let H1 return to the game despite Basketball R3-S3-A4 not allowing it?

3) Where in Basketball R3-S3-A4 does it say that we can ignore the Rule for "star" players? Where in the Basketball Rule Four can I find the Definition for "star" players?

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 10:22pm
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I officiate and I assign.

I'd much rather get the call from the coach who thinks the officials set aside a rule in this situation than the coach who thinks the officials have no feel for the spirit and intent of the rules.


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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 10:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
For those who are not baseball umpires, NFHS Baseball R10-S2-A3l states: "[The Umpire's-in-Chief] duties include those listed in R10-S2-A1, R10-S2-A2, and rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage."



NFHS Baseball R10-S2-A3l is really applicable to an extremely small set of situations which I would venture to say is almost 100% Live Ball situations. The best example of these situations is:



NFHS Baseball Casebook 10.2.3 Situation H: "With a count of three balls and two strikes on B2 and R1 on first base, the batter takes what appears to be a half swing. The plate umpire calls ball four and R1, upon hearing ball four, then trots to second base. The catcher throws the ball to F4 who tags R1 before he reaches base. The catcher asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire to see if B2 did, in fact, attempt to hit the pitch. The base umpire indicates that the batter did swing at the ball. RULING: The plate umpire will declare the batter out and return R1 to first base. The umpire-in-chief can rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed a base runner in jeopardy."



One will notice that in Baseball CB Play 10.2.3 Sit. H the Base Runner was put at a disadvantage while the Ball was Live. That is the essence of Baseball R10-S2-A3l, the disadvantage occurs while the Ball is Live.



Rarely, in Basketball does the Official's whistle cause the Ball to become Dead. Something has occurred that causes the Ball to become Dead the Official sounds his whistle to stop play so that a TO Request can be granted, or to recognize that a Violation or Foul has occurred.



In the Play that we are discussing I would ask "you" a couple of questions:



1) How Team H was put at a disadvantage by the L reversing his OoB call? L's original call gave the Ball to Team V and with him changing his call to give the Ball to Team H it could be argued that him changing his call put Team V at a disadvantage.



2) If the Original Play occurred with 0:30.0 left in the 1st QT, would "you" grant H-HC's request to let H1 return to the game despite Basketball R3-S3-A4 not allowing it?



3) Where in Basketball R3-S3-A4 does it say that we can ignore the Rule for "star" players? Where in the Basketball Rule Four can I find the Definition for "star" players?



MTD, Sr.


tl;dr

Seriously.


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Old Sat Feb 24, 2018, 11:12pm
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tl;dr

Seriously.


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Hey! Don't blame me. Bob is the one that brought Baseball into the discussion. And when it comes to Baseball Rules, all I have to do is channel Mark, Jr.

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