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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
HS comment only:

But now we have the official warning, which we put in the book, which really should replace the stop sign for those that use it.

Because the next stop after the official warning is a technical foul. Where would the stop sign actually fit?

Agree on this, however, I had a situation last night where I went:

1. "Coach that's enough" with a stop sign.
2. "What do you mean thats enough, you can't tell me be quiet"
3. Quick tweet, "coach warning"

So to me, you still can have a coach run through a stop sign, but after the warning, that's it, my stop sign turns into a "T Intersection"
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 11:05am
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I have worked baseball for about 15 years and just got into basketball last year. I learned really quickly that even though the stop sign works 95% of the time in baseball when coaches know you've heard them, it's an epic failure in basketball the majority of the time. It was my go to coach management style coming into basketball and I got burned quickly. I do still use it occasionally for players depending on our interaction, but I will almost always talk to a coach before he gets the stop sign. The hand typically only comes out when I'm walking away from the coach after our discussion or if the ball is live and he wants to carry on. At that point, AFAIC, he's getting whatever he's asking for once we've talked.

Take it for what it's worth, especially with the far senior guys on this board, but that's been my experience crossing over from a sport that uses the hand much more liberally.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Agreed. I also think it's another example of camp speak. How many times is the stop sign taught by clinicians as the greatest technique ever?

And if you don't use the stop sign to tell coaches and players what to do, you're not doing it right? Balderdash.

I can make myself clear in other ways. The stop sign is not the be-all and end-all that many officials act like.
I’m not sure what you have against “camp speak”, that stuff has become teaching material for a reason.

I agree that the stop sign is not an end-all-be-all, but it’s pretty effective at communicating when we are done.

What techniques do you use instead? I’d appreciate as much detail as you can give.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packersowner View Post
Agree on this, however, I had a situation last night where I went:

1. "Coach that's enough" with a stop sign.
2. "What do you mean thats enough, you can't tell me be quiet"
3. Quick tweet, "coach warning"

So to me, you still can have a coach run through a stop sign, but after the warning, that's it, my stop sign turns into a "T Intersection"
But talk of the stop sign was before this new warning. And it was said that if they walk through the stop sign, you were supposed to get them. The problem is all of that boxes you in. You have little choice or you look either weak or you look like you did not mean your position.

So why is it any different than a warning? At least with a warning, you have something official. A stop sign looks like a confrontation. And yes it matters based on many factors (e.g. Who you are and what you look like).

Peace
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 12:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
But talk of the stop sign was before this new warning. And it was said that if they walk through the stop sign, you were supposed to get them. The problem is all of that boxes you in. You have little choice or you look either weak or you look like you did not mean your position.

So why is it any different than a warning? At least with a warning, you have something official. A stop sign looks like a confrontation. And yes it matters based on many factors (e.g. Who you are and what you look like).

Peace
My "stop sign" previous to this year was essentially an "official warning" as it's defined and utilized this season.

I choose to give 3 or 4 "stop signs/warnings" per year - that's just how it always seems to work out. 1 or 2 coaches, on average, don't get the stop sing/warning - I go straight to the TF. It's all based on so many factors. Every season, venue, coach, matchup, situation is different. Yes, there are black and white situations too, but my experience using the "stop sign/official warning" has been quite effective. That, obviously, could change tomorrow night. Time will tell.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I've said for years that the stop sign is counterproductive and in many cases inflammatory.

This, from a meeting between the NBA Players and Officials Unions.

"One of the actions discussed was referees giving the so-called “stop hand” to players during disagreements. While this is taught to referees as a way to diffuse a situation, it has been taken as offensive by players who want to have more of an open back-and-forth. Overall, the sides would like more open discussion of various hand signals and techniques."


https://deadspin.com/report-part-of-...%28Deadspin%29
From an NBA official to player standpoint, I think a perfectly good concession would be to do away with the stop sign along with players conceding that the hand gestures and overly demonstrative displays will be T'd accordingly.

In a scholastic context, I agree with Rich and others that the stop sign often escalates situations and is counterproductive. It also can also box you in a bit moving forward.

A lot of coaches view the stop sign the same way officials view the waive off from coaches. Both are counterproductive IMO.

I probably used it some many years ago but have found much more effective communication tools that work for me. The only time I think I use it now is when a coach is advancing too far out of the box or coming way onto the court to whine at the beginning of a timeout.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
From an NBA official to player standpoint, I think a perfectly good concession would be to do away with the stop sign along with players conceding that the hand gestures and overly demonstrative displays will be T'd accordingly.

In a scholastic context, I agree with Rich and others that the stop sign often escalates situations and is counterproductive. It also can also box you in a bit moving forward.

A lot of coaches view the stop sign the same way officials view the waive off from coaches. Both are counterproductive IMO.

I probably used it some many years ago but have found much more effective communication tools that work for me. The only time I think I use it now is when a coach is advancing too far out of the box or coming way onto the court to whine at the beginning of a timeout.
Interesting....
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 19, 2018, 10:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
But talk of the stop sign was before this new warning. And it was said that if they walk through the stop sign, you were supposed to get them. The problem is all of that boxes you in. You have little choice or you look either weak or you look like you did not mean your position.

So why is it any different than a warning? At least with a warning, you have something official. A stop sign looks like a confrontation. And yes it matters based on many factors (e.g. Who you are and what you look like).

Peace
You're completely right, who you are and how you look does play into it.

I don't disagree with your overall assessment, but its also not officially written that a warning should replace a stop sign. I do think as others have pointed out, its about demeanor and how you present it. If you are going to look like a NYC traffic cop at 5 PM, thats a lot different than saying "coach, thats enough" with a open hand like looks more like tell my partners I have had two beers and need to drive home.

I think you can tell a coach, we've had enough without warning them and conversely, I think you can officially warn a coach without telling them its enough. And as much as it is who you are and what you look like, I think we all know the coaches that need the stop sign or the immediate warning.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2018, 03:29pm
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I've given two official warnings this year and was met with "Then call it both ways" immediately after...so there were two of my Ts on Coaches this year.

I also brought two 8th grade players who were whistled for double foul by my partner together to remind them we weren't going to let attitudes take over the game today...I was met with and under the breath "What the F is this guy talking about?!" ...he was sent packing.

As for the stop sign, I've used it in past and I think the official warning is the same thing but carries more validity...except for those two knuckleheads mentioned above.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2018, 04:30pm
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Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches View Post
I've given two official warnings this year and was met with "Then call it both ways" immediately after...so there were two of my Ts on Coaches this year.
That's more or less what happened in my situation a week or so ago.

On another occasion, I remember hearing a coach muttering something nice meant for me to hear while reporting the official warning to the table, and, since protocol doesn't require or imply the reporting official to move away opposite tableside, I looked directly at him and said sternly, "It would be in your best interest to stop talking right now."

He still probably doesn't realize how "nice" of a guy I am and much grace I extended him.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 20, 2018, 06:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook View Post
On another occasion, I remember hearing a coach muttering something nice meant for me to hear while reporting the official warning to the table, and, since protocol doesn't require or imply the reporting official to move away opposite tableside, I looked directly at him and said sternly, "It would be in your best interest to stop talking right now."
And that's the way it should be. The official that gives the warning should be the one to handle the business that follows if necessary. I work with some partners who want to go away from the table after they give a warning. Why? If the coach chooses not to heed the warning, that is 100% on him. Handle your business or don't warn.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 21, 2018, 09:56am
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I only use it after a coach has said the same thing over and over followed with a "Ive heard you, and it's enough, so let's move on." or if a coach is coming onto the court followed with a "please return to your bench and I'll come to you."

other than that the only reason I have to use it is when communication has failed and i'm over a coach's behavior. The T is close to follow.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 21, 2018, 10:03am
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I've always found that good coaches knew when they reached their limit, especially after I have told them to their face that I've reached my limit to their behavior and antics.

The more inexperienced and/or crappy coaches don't take to such obvious clues and then act surprised when they get T'd up.

In the end if you are at your wits end with a coach let them know. If they continue it shouldn't be a shock that they got a T. I have gone so far a couple times with coaches that act like jerks in Q1 to say "I'm not going to tolerate this behavior for 3 more quarters." I'm not scared to follow that up with a T if/when they push it.

I don't believe in coddling adults. Heck I don't believe in coddling children.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 21, 2018, 11:26am
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
I have gone so far a couple times with coaches that act like jerks in Q1 to say "I'm not going to tolerate this behavior for 3 more quarters." I'm not scared to follow that up with a T if/when they push it.
I did that late this season with a coach who notoriously complains/yells all game long. First quarter, loose ball, his kid dives on it and they (he and his ASSistant) wanted a push off on the other kid. The other kid didn´t do anything illegal to that point so I had nothing. Other team player jumps on top of that kid and they both stand up yelling at me. I had hit my whistle to call the foul, but they were so busy yelling that they didn´t hear it. I just said to him ¨Coach, that will be the last time that happens. You and your assistants won´t be raising your voice at me or officiating this game tonight.¨ He acted incredulous and told my partner ¨He can´t talk to me like that.¨ My partner said ¨He can, and he did. You´ve been warned.¨ He was fine the rest of the night.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 21, 2018, 11:53am
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Good on you AND your partner for backing you up. The latter (in general) is not always the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
I did that late this season with a coach who notoriously complains/yells all game long. First quarter, loose ball, his kid dives on it and they (he and his ASSistant) wanted a push off on the other kid. The other kid didn´t do anything illegal to that point so I had nothing. Other team player jumps on top of that kid and they both stand up yelling at me. I had hit my whistle to call the foul, but they were so busy yelling that they didn´t hear it. I just said to him ¨Coach, that will be the last time that happens. You and your assistants won´t be raising your voice at me or officiating this game tonight.¨ He acted incredulous and told my partner ¨He can´t talk to me like that.¨ My partner said ¨He can, and he did. You´ve been warned.¨ He was fine the rest of the night.
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