No padding on backboard
 

Arrived at a playoff game tonight in an offsite gym. For playoffs we travel to another area so neither of us have seen this team or gym before.

Can we play? We've called our assignor but can't reach him? The coach says they've played here all season and both coaches want to play.

Both backboards are rectangular but lack the required padding by rule. The book doesn't say what to do so my assumption is the implication is you cannot play on an illegal court?

I'm surprised no one has said anything prior to this, if games have been played here. If it's my call, I'm postponing this game (I don't know if I have that power technically, but I'm not starting the game anyways). Rule book says "...backboards shall be padded with..." I don't think that's optional.

That is a safety issue. My advice is to not play when there is a safety concern. It needs to be corrected prior to starting the contest. As officials we are to enforce the rules and to look out for the safety of the competitors. You would not be in a good position if a kid were to get injured.

What did you do?

NevadaRef:

I concur with you 100%, but I would add one more bit of advice: If the game is not played do not leave without your game fee. We, as officials, are contracted to conduct the game per the rules, and one of the things that we must do is to make sure that the equipment is safe, and by not allowing the game to be played is one of the things that fall within the scope of our game contract. Especially, if this situation, if the court has been like this all season.

MTD, Sr.

We ended up playing - though I will add I do agree in hindsight that we likely should not have.

Neither of us had run into an issue like this before and were not exactly sure what our jurisdiction was in a playoff game. CIF had awarded this school a home playoff game, and they had played here all season. While I think we would have been 100% justified in refusing the coaches' requests to play, we were a bit at a loss for what to do.

Both coaches wanted to play and were adamant none of their players were athletic enough to get anywhere near the rim (this was a game between two small schools), the visiting team had traveled over 2 hours and did not want to potentially have the game rescheduled.

Like I said, I'm confident we made the incorrect decision by rule, so no need to post letting me know that, but that was the end result.

The game went on, the home team won, the backboard was, as the coaches expected, never an issue and everyone went home.

Am I the only one that thinks it's messed up that they couldn't get a hold of the assignor or somebody else with the authority to say "yes, go ahead and play" or "no, we'll reschedule"?

What about holding up the game until someone with the authority to do so called and said one way or the other?

Maybe I'm the only one, but I would not have given it a second thought - we would have played the game. I'm not about to cancel a playoff game that both teams traveled to a neutral site to get to, along with their fans, when the state tourney schedule probably also depends on the outcome of this game - after an entire season of games was played here. Not gonna take that high road.

I agree. Good opportunity to make sure you probably may not work any playoff games ever again.

I think we are a product of the philosophy that the game goes on and we file a UIL incident report after the fact.

Common sense has to prevail
 

Rule is clear, but you also have to apply common sense. The meeting with BOTH coaches agreeing that it isn't an issue for their athletes would be significant in my decision to allow the game to go on. It being a playoff game it seems like athletic directors from schools are also in attendance, did they weigh in on the issue? Obviously it is bizzare that in this day and age there isnt padding on there-- I cant even imagine how that exists. The peach baskets duct taped to the plywood fantail in my church gym even has padding.. I would have felt like I was walking into one of those movies about 1950's Indiana high school basketball.

If both coaches agree to allow players 7 fouls before they are disqualified from the game is that okay, too?

I don't mean to imply that I would want to, or ever would suspend the game. However, I would feel better about things if a "higher up" gave us the thumbs up to play.

Where is the line between common sense and going by the rule book? Is that just one of those things that experience has to teach you?

Do you guys ever check the Hot Moms for padding? ;)

My biggest thing is to cover my ass on things like this. If you have both coaches saying play and someone gets hurt it’s on you in the end because you have to explain why you allowed teams to play with goals that illegal. I call my assignor and if I can’t get ahold of him I get the AD’s on the court to give a yes or a no and explain its on them if anything happens

Neither team had an athletic director in attendance. This was the first question we asked. Unfortunately, this was a game between two small schools, the host school used this off-site location (which was essentially the equivalent of a YMCA type location) as their host site. The head coach, the kids at the scorer's table and a mom taking tickets were the only people identified to us as 'school officials'

Our assignor has been great all season and works very hard for our unit and is generally easily reachable - I'm confident if we had trouble reaching him there was a legit reason. Of course it would have been preferable to get a ruling from him, but in the moment I was more concerned with the lack of a game administrator from the host school at a postseason game.

Gravitas ...
 

Probably not going to happen, but if anybody gets hurt, anybody can sue anybody for any reason at any time. Billable hours will be involved.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.O...=0&w=300&h=300

I would probably let them play, but I would feel a lot better if someone with more gravitas than me approved.

Which CIF Section was this?

My area doesn't start playoffs until tomorrow.

Southern

Everybody asks what do the athletic directors or governing officials say.... but
I’m going to ask what would your lawyer say?

Not enforcing a safety rule is never a good idea. Exposes the officiating crew to liability if an injury occurs when ignoring a safety rule. .. the coaches agreeing doesn’t help with liabilities.. in fact based on what I have seen from the California Supreme Court .......others generally do have a duty not to increase the risk of harm beyond what is inherent in the sport. (Kahn v. East Side Union High School )

The California Supreme Court has also noted, in dicta, that those responsible for maintaining athletic facilities have a similar duty not to increase the inherent risks. With intercollegiate sports competition, the host college or university owes a duty to home and visiting participants alike not to increase the risks inherent in the sport. I suspect they’d apply it to high school sports....

I wonder if padding wasn’t available or could have been.. poly high carb vinyl pad ( whatever that is) may not have been available but something else that was reasonable....even then that may not absolve liability

For most girls games I wouldn’t worry, but above the rim play would concern me for boys...

Some food for thought from a different perspective.....

Negligence
 

Swimmer breaks neck, loses case against High School and Coach - Sports Injury Law

I wonder if officials (not coaches, or school districts) have ever been sued for negligence?

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu...text=sportslaw

Geez.. everyone wants to be a hardcase-- the discussion on this board was about applying common sense. Meeting with the coaches would be gathering pertinent information to use in the judgement call as to allow the game to continue or not. Pretty much the only thing that is relevant to the "safety" aspect is if any player on the court could elevate to a level that put his head in proximity to the bottom of the backboard. Pretty sure the coaches are the ones who can tell you that, and I know we are supposed to demonize and belittle coaches on this board, but in this case they are the source of the information you need to make a wise ("wise" meaning applying judgement to facts that you have) decision.

And, BTW this "playoff game" sounds like such a slipshod operation that if you, as ref, walked off and refused to call it they probably would have grabbed the mom taking tickets and given her a whistle and said "game on"

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the rule that talked about it only applying to certain players.

I'm not the only one looking to cover his ass, either. It's not about being a "hardcase" it's about doing the right thing in terms of rules and safety.

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I am not talking about the rule here. The rules is clear, and well understood. I am talking about applying judgement to the situation here. While the "rule" applies equally to all players, the actual risk of injury would apply only to players who could jump high enough to get their head near the backboard.

And I am the first to waive off a game where there exists a legitimate dangerous condition. In this case it does not sound like there is anything like a legitimate risk to the players wellbeing.

If I were they only one with the same concerns I'd say "ok".

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The answer is yes. Whether they win or not is a different story..Ask the football officials in Texas what it is like to face a 10 million dollar lawsuit. They eventually won but still...

Whether the standard in a state is negligence or gross negligence.. makes a difference. i think most states would follow the gross negligence standard. I posted the generalities of California becuase the game was played there .( and that’s where I’m licnsed) .. and of course this post does not create any attorney client relationship and are id applicable in all states

If this was a game where I thought a head could actually hit that board, I'd hesitate.

Small school game or girls game? Different to me.

Girl shoots the ball, but it hits the bottom of the backboard and comes back down and breaks the girl's nose.

Parents sue on the grounds that if the required padding were there the ball wouldn't have come back so fast.

Ridiculous? Probably. Possible? Yeah. And I'd want to make sure my name wasn't attached to the lawsuit.

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Oh my, BryanV21 you have left me speechless. You win. I concede. Oy Vey.

Yeah. Why strive for an answer when we can all simply agree with your common sense?

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I quit because you in fact stopped "striving for an answer" and abandoned all connection with reality and reason in your striving to be right. I figured if it is that important to you to be right, I would give it to you. You're welcome:).

No, me asking SOMEONE ELSE (the NFHS, your state association, your assignor, or another authority figure) to give us a definitive answer is not at all about me being right. On the other hand, you saying your common sense is to be taken above all else is most definitely about you being right.

Nor did you quit by putting my name in your post.

Reality is some people will look to sue or at least blame others for silly things like my aforementioned situation. Covering our asses is not dumb at all.

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I would think that cutting an arm or hand on the bottom edge of the unpadded backboard would be by far the most likely injury.
I'm not officiating such a contest. End of story.

Very interesting. We officiated a DH earlier this winter where there were multiple slips due to moisture on the floor. I bet we called 6 travels due to it (kids hitting the floor). Multiple kids off the ball fell as well. I was worried I would slip while transitioning. I am guessing it was do to the weather outside (lots of snow), location of the entrance to the gym, and the sidelines being very close to the bleachers. The host school did everything they could to keep it dry but it was still and issue. The chances of a kid injuring themselves due to the moisture were much higher than the backboard issue we are discussing. I never thought about stopping the game and a lawsuit never crossed my mind.

Maybe because there's no rule specifying slippery floors?

I'm not criticizing those that would play. I'm merely trying to cover my ass and trying to do what's best when it comes to the rules and the interests of coaches, players, administrators, etc.

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You should have. An NBA game was postponed last week for "moisture on the floor." Safety issues need to be taken seriously.

I can't stress this enough: game officials have two jobs--1. Enforce the rules of the game fairly, 2. Look out for the safety of the participants.

Our pregame duties require us to inspect and approve the court.

I think you are correct.

I figured all the concerns happened during the game and weren't apparent during pregame.

BTW, I not saying you did anything wrong, just pointing out that the rule book doesn't specifically mention slippery courts while it clearly talks about the padding on the backboard.

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10-4

I don't have my book with me (at work), but I assume I'm wrong. Sorry.

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I cant imagine anyone disagreeing with that statement. That isnt what is in question in this thread. The issue is- whether or not the condition described is a threat to the safety of the participants. Just because other ref would use critical thinking skills to evaluate the risk, then decide to continue the game does not mean they dont value safety. It means their conlusion was slightly different than yours. Saying they somehow dont care about safety isnt fair.

If you really wanted to put some critical thinking skills on this, and not just rule by rote, you would take a holistic view of safety, and consider the added, and very real risks, of making the players and fans make a second four hour round trip by car or bus to attend the second attempt to get the game in is worth the possibility of a broken fingernail when a player scrapes the bottom of the backboard.

I was acknowledging your comment as in 10-4 (roger that). Too funny.

LOL.

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Bryan:

A very good example of a lawsuit waiting to happen.

MTD, Sr.

You could get sued for cancelling the game. Stop being so scared of a lawsuit and just take steps to minimize your risks. If this is like a majority of HS basketball games, this will not be a safety issue. If it's a game with a bunch of tall and athletic kids then it will be a safety issue.

I don't think a blanket "call it off" works here.

I would have played the game if the Coaches said there was no concern of the players being injured.

For those that say that isn't good enough why would a call to the assignor or whoever else saying it was ok make any difference. It would still be me ignoring the rule and playing.

I don't know about getting sued for calling the game off, but hell nothing would surprise me in this day and age.

That being said, I agree with you. This isn't an absolute situation, just like most of what we encounter.

Because we oftentimes change our mechanics based on what our assignors want.

In essence, you're right. But if the state were to ask about the situation it would be much better for me to say my assignor signed off on.

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The league I played in in HS fit this bill.

You will could get sued, but the plaintiffs will not prevail. Why? You enforced a Safety Rule which must be enforced with no exceptions.

MTD, Sr.

Nobody speaks of the fact that canceling a playoff game could result in the crew never being assigned another.


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