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-   -   Posession Arrow (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103411-posession-arrow.html)

Beaverfan Wed Jan 24, 2018 07:51pm
Posession Arrow
 
Not a ref, a stupid youth coach.

Possession arrow is in my favor. A jump ball is called and i take the ball out baseline. My kids freak out and don't get the ball inbounded. Ball never leaves the inbounders hand. 5 second violation is called and we turn the ball over. My question is since the ball was never inbounded, the possession arrow stays with me correct?

Rich Wed Jan 24, 2018 07:54pm
No. Violation by A. You lose the arrow.


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Beaverfan Wed Jan 24, 2018 07:56pm
but the arrow doesn't change until the ball is touched. So shouldn't it stay with me?

Rich Wed Jan 24, 2018 07:58pm
No.

When the throw in team violates, they lose the ball and the arrow, by rule.


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Anidis Wed Jan 24, 2018 08:38pm
From another lurker-coach:

Would you be willing to provide a list of times when the possession arrow does not change following the award of possession?

Thanks in advance!

JRutledge Wed Jan 24, 2018 08:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anidis (Post 1015434)
From another lurker-coach:

Would you be willing to provide a list of times when the possession arrow does not change following the award of possession?

Thanks in advance!
1. A foul.
2. Ball not legally touched (usually the defense)
3. Defensive team commits a violation (look at #2)

Not aware of any more reasons it would not change.

Peace

SNIPERBBB Wed Jan 24, 2018 08:58pm
It's a short list, it does not change if:
Either team commits a foul or the defensive team commits a violation before the throw-in ends.

pfan1981 Wed Jan 24, 2018 09:13pm
A foul by either team, the arrow does not change.

A violation by the defensive team, the arrow doesn’t change.

The last game I worked, my partner had a thrower almost to a five count, he throws to throw it off the defender and the defender ends up kicking it. Told my partner that if that was an AP throw in that the arrow wouldn’t change. I was the C and told the coach as well. He admitted he didn’t know that but appreciated the rules knowledge.

Rich Wed Jan 24, 2018 09:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfan1981 (Post 1015439)
A foul by either team, the arrow does not change.



A violation by the defensive team, the arrow doesn’t change.



The last game I worked, my partner had a thrower almost to a five count, he throws to throw it off the defender and the defender ends up kicking it. Told my partner that if that was an AP throw in that the arrow wouldn’t change. I was the C and told the coach as well. He admitted he didn’t know that but appreciated the rules knowledge.


Why would you ever give a hypothetical situation to a coach? To show how "smart" you are?


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DrPete Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:13pm
The only way I can imagine that the defense could violate on a throw in is by a kicked ball. There probably are other ways, but may be even less common.

bob jenkins Thu Jan 25, 2018 08:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anidis (Post 1015434)
From another lurker-coach:

Would you be willing to provide a list of times when the possession arrow does not change following the award of possession?

Thanks in advance!
It's easier to say when it changes: When the throw-in ends.

And, the throw-in ends when the ball is legally touched on the court OR the inbounding team violates. (The OP forgot / didn't know the second half of that rule)

bob jenkins Thu Jan 25, 2018 08:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete (Post 1015451)
The only way I can imagine that the defense could violate on a throw in is by a kicked ball. There probably are other ways, but may be even less common.
Hit the ball with a fist.

frezer11 Thu Jan 25, 2018 09:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete (Post 1015451)
The only way I can imagine that the defense could violate on a throw in is by a kicked ball. There probably are other ways, but may be even less common.
Going out of bounds to avoid a screen.

Scrapper1 Thu Jan 25, 2018 09:42am
At a recent college game, we had a defensive foul before the AP throw-in was released. The guy at the table actually argued with me about changing the arrow. Had to kind of be a jerk about it to get the game moving. Then went back during a time-out to try to explain. I'm still not sure he believed me.

Rich Thu Jan 25, 2018 09:45am
I can't stand when table people try to tell you how to run the game.

I'll whistle in a sub and the scorer will argue the sub didn't quite get to the X and try to force the sub back.


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Raymond Thu Jan 25, 2018 09:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1015488)
I can't stand when table people try to tell you how to run the game.

I'll whistle in a sub and the scorer will argue the sub didn't quite get to the X and try to force the sub back.


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I had a table the other night that was telling us about the opponents having their waistbands rolled down....SMH

frezer11 Thu Jan 25, 2018 09:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1015488)
I can't stand when table people try to tell you how to run the game.

I'll whistle in a sub and the scorer will argue the sub didn't quite get to the X and try to force the sub back.


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Ugh... We have someone like that here too, same as you described. She also has it set in her head that it is the referee's job to physically change the arrow at the table at halftime. Won't even touch it.

Rich Thu Jan 25, 2018 09:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1015493)
Ugh... We have someone like that here too, same as you described. She also has it set in her head that it is the referee's job to physically change the arrow at the table at halftime. Won't even touch it.


Doesn't take long for me to fix that.

"When I beckon, they're in."

Many tables are so slow you rarely even get a horn before you've already whistled the person in.


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sdoebler Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:23am
I miss spoke

Scrapper1 Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1015507)
This is not correct, if the offensive team commits a team control foul before the throw in ends the arrow does change.
Dude, seriously. Listen to what people are trying to tell you. The arrow only changes under two conditions:

1) When the AP throw-in is completed.
2) When the throw-in team violates.

That's it. That's the list.

Foul = NO ARROW CHANGE.

Edited to add citation: Rule 6-4-5

sdoebler Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 1015508)
Dude, seriously. Listen to what people are trying to tell you. The arrow only changes under two conditions:

1) When the AP throw-in is completed.
2) When the throw-in team violates.

That's it. That's the list.

Foul = NO ARROW CHANGE.

Edited to add citation: Rule 6-4-5
You are correct my mistake

Camron Rust Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete (Post 1015451)
The only way I can imagine that the defense could violate on a throw in is by a kicked ball. There probably are other ways, but may be even less common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1015473)
Hit the ball with a fist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1015477)
Going out of bounds to avoid a screen.
+Excessive elbow swinging.

frezer11 Thu Jan 25, 2018 01:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1015521)
+Excessive elbow swinging.
There is no rule requiring this violation to be only called on the ball handler, but have you ever seen or called it on anyone who was not in possession of the ball? I can't think of a reason to be swinging your arms without the ball.

Raymond Thu Jan 25, 2018 01:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1015540)
There is no rule requiring this violation to be only called on the ball handler, but have you ever seen or called it on anyone who was not in possession of the ball? I can't think of a reason to be swinging your arms without the ball.
Player feels like his opponent is holding him/her and swings their elbow to get free.

JRutledge Thu Jan 25, 2018 03:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1015543)
Player feels like his opponent is holding him/her and swings their elbow to get free.
Rebounding this can happen as well.

Peace

Beaverfan Thu Jan 25, 2018 03:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 1015508)
Dude, seriously. Listen to what people are trying to tell you. The arrow only changes under two conditions:

1) When the AP throw-in is completed.
2) When the throw-in team violates.

That's it. That's the list.

Foul = NO ARROW CHANGE.

Edited to add citation: Rule 6-4-5
OP here. Thanks. Guess i got away with one. Is there a free place online to read the NFHS rule book, so i can look up rules?

UNIgiantslayers Thu Jan 25, 2018 03:21pm
2015-2016. A few changes since then.

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/d..._Rule_Book.pdf

#olderthanilook Thu Jan 25, 2018 03:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1015488)
I can't stand when table people try to tell you how to run the game.

I'll whistle in a sub and the scorer will argue the sub didn't quite get to the X and try to force the sub back.


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Seems like there is always that one or two games per season where the official scorer gives you that "What the....? Are you sure?" look when I've reported a color and number for a foul, followed by the "look around" while they croon their neck trying to find that player to make sure they are on the floor before recording the foul.

Super annoying. There's been a time or two I want to smack 'em upside the head for it. :D

crosscountry55 Thu Jan 25, 2018 04:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook (Post 1015554)
Seems like there is always that one or two games per season where the official scorer gives you that "What the....? Are you sure?" look when I've reported a color and number for a foul, followed by the "look around" while they croon their neck trying to find that player to make sure they are on the floor before recording the foul.

Super annoying. There's been a time or two I want to smack 'em upside the head for it. :D
Well, yeah, but more often the table saves my bacon and reminds me of a mistake I still have time to correct (most often reporting an incorrect number/player). So I'll take the bad with the good.

UNIgiantslayers Thu Jan 25, 2018 04:05pm
I've had a couple this year that are visibly disagreeing with calls or shaking their heads about fouls on the home team.

Camron Rust Thu Jan 25, 2018 04:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1015540)
There is no rule requiring this violation to be only called on the ball handler, but have you ever seen or called it on anyone who was not in possession of the ball? I can't think of a reason to be swinging your arms without the ball.
No, but the question was asking for ways a team could violate before the throwin ended. Likely, no, but possible.


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