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-   -   Backcourt Violation? Jumpball? Thoughts? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103343-backcourt-violation-jumpball-thoughts.html)

Ditty92 Thu Jan 11, 2018 01:25pm

Backcourt Violation? Jumpball? Thoughts?
 
Was watching this game between Wake Forest and Virginia Tech last night, and wanted to get some more opinions on the play at 1:28:17 (3:10 left in the 2nd Half). Teddy immediately heads over to Danny Manning and seems to have a pretty definitive explanation for why he called a Jump ball so I wanted to hear what that explanation might have been.

Apologize for the long video...Couldn't find a clip anywhere else.

Virginia Tech vs. Wake Forest (M Basketball) - WatchESPN

frankodatanko Thu Jan 11, 2018 02:18pm

NFHS this is backcourt all day - Team control still exists during interrupted dribble, last to touch, first to touch

But I'm pretty sure NCAA Men's took out interrupted dribble from the team control definition, so pretty sure Teddy's jump ball call was spot on

JRutledge Thu Jan 11, 2018 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankodatanko (Post 1014535)
NFHS this is backcourt all day - Team control still exists during interrupted dribble, last to touch, first to touch

But I'm pretty sure NCAA Men's took out interrupted dribble from the team control definition, so pretty sure Teddy's jump ball call was spot on

That is not true exactly. The rule basically says that either team is permitted to touch the ball in the BC when the ball is defected by the defense. And all that changed with TC was when there is a loose ball as it relates to fouls and shooting FTs potentially.

I am not sure this was the right call unless he deemed that the defender touched the ball. The problem is it does not look like the ball was touched. So I think it is possible this was a miss, but they did not show a close up.

Peace

bucky Thu Jan 11, 2018 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ditty92 (Post 1014528)
Was watching this game between Wake Forest and Virginia Tech last night, and wanted to get some more opinions on the play at 1:28:17 (3:10 left in the 2nd Half). Teddy immediately heads over to Danny Manning and seems to have a pretty definitive explanation for why he called a Jump ball so I wanted to hear what that explanation might have been.

Apologize for the long video...Couldn't find a clip anywhere else.

Virginia Tech vs. Wake Forest (M Basketball) - WatchESPN

Foul on defense. If Teddy calls a foul, there would have been way less complaining/questioning. If passing on the foul, BC violation presuming defense did not hit the ball. Held ball if defense hit the ball.

No sense in debating anything though because Teddy is so great. We would be foolish to question a referee of his caliber, who has had a stellar career.

JRutledge Thu Jan 11, 2018 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1014539)
Foul on defense. If Teddy calls a foul, there would have been way less complaining/questioning. If passing on the foul, BC violation presuming defense did not hit the ball. Held ball if defense hit the ball.

No sense in debating anything though because Teddy is so great. We would be foolish to question a referee of his caliber, who has had a stellar career.

There is a lot to debate. I do not think there was a foul, but I do feel there was a BC violation based on what I saw. And it is possible for even the best of the best to make mistakes. So you can save the comments as if we cannot be critical of Teddy Valentine, just like we are of John Higgins or any other top-flight guy out there. But this is a tough play and I also hate the new rule that muddies the waters. I am sure Valentine at best hesitated because he was trying not to call something he had doubt about. But he was also not the only official on this play and it was actually more in the lap of the C based on what I remember.

Peace

Raymond Thu Jan 11, 2018 04:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankodatanko (Post 1014535)
NFHS this is backcourt all day - Team control still exists during interrupted dribble, last to touch, first to touch

But I'm pretty sure NCAA Men's took out interrupted dribble from the team control definition, so pretty sure Teddy's jump ball call was spot on

There is still TC during an interrupted dribble. But NCAA-Men's changed the backcourt rule in regards to player control if the ball has been tipped/deflected by the defense.

frezer11 Thu Jan 11, 2018 05:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1014541)
There is a lot to debate. I do not think there was a foul, but I do feel there was a BC violation based on what I saw. And it is possible for even the best of the best to make mistakes. So you can save the comments as if we cannot be critical of Teddy Valentine, just like we are of John Higgins or any other top-flight guy out there. But this is a tough play and I also hate the new rule that muddies the waters. I am sure Valentine at best hesitated because he was trying not to call something he had doubt about. But he was also not the only official on this play and it was actually more in the lap of the C based on what I remember.

Peace

First off, I don't think there was a foul either, that would be REALLY weak.

I actually like this rule change. I think that the way it was written, and the way the HS rule is currently written is unfair. A tipped ball by the defense that is then grazed by the offense, and the O can't recover it? I don't think that's what the original intent of the rule was. And while I do recognize on the other hand that if its the same play with the OOB line instead of the division line its simply who touched it last, I don't think those scenarios are perfectly comparable.

As for whether or not the D actually tipped it, this would be a perfect time for the tipped ball mechanic, and then there is no doubt. I think its backcourt, I believe the offensive player regained control while sitting, and then fell to his elbow in the backcourt as the D tried to tie him up. I wouldn't call a travel, but I think that would be an option as well.

bucky Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1014546)
First off, I don't think there was a foul either, that would be REALLY weak.

VT player stops, defense puts one hand on VT player, and suddenly VT player gets displaced...on his own volition? Come on. A foul call may have been weak but it would not have been as weak as what the result was with Teddy....IMO.

bob jenkins Fri Jan 12, 2018 08:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1014546)
I believe the offensive player regained control while sitting, and then fell to his elbow in the backcourt as the D tried to tie him up. I wouldn't call a travel, but I think that would be an option as well.

I did not watch the video, but what you describe is NOT traveling.

frezer11 Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1014570)
I did not watch the video, but what you describe is NOT traveling.

You're right as described. In the clip he does sort of half roll while turning away from the D as well. Again I'm not going there, but it might be close


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