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-   -   Travel vs. Carry vs. Legal (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103283-travel-vs-carry-vs-legal.html)

tankmjg24 Wed Dec 27, 2017 01:03pm
Travel vs. Carry vs. Legal
 
Had this situation occur in a game the other day and there is some debate within my group as to what the correct call is. Player drives to the basket for a layup. While doing so he takes the ball and puts it on his hip with his hand underneath. The progression was then left step, right step, layup.

Current viewpoints are that this is a legal drive to the basket, a carry, or a travel. Some believe that anytime the player puts the ball on his hip with hand underneath that this is a carry. Others believe that in order for a carry to be called that the player must dribble the ball again. A few feel that after he hips the ball that he then has one step and a layup, since he took 2 this is a travel.

Thoughts?

Raymond Wed Dec 27, 2017 01:19pm
Did he gather with both feet off the ground?

Was his right foot his pivot foot? If so, it was a travel. If not, it was legal.

For the "carry" crowd. A carry is an illegal dribble. How do they call an illegal dribble if the player is no longer dribbling the ball? By their definition, every time a player ends his/her dribble, it's a carry. Tell them to think about that for a moment.

BryanV21 Wed Dec 27, 2017 03:45pm
I don't believe the word "hip" is anywhere in the rule. Tell them to stop reading into things so much.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Wed Dec 27, 2017 06:56pm
Carrying/Palming ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1013677)
A carry is an illegal dribble.
I realize that palming/carrying is part of the dribble rule, but can't we also call palming/carrying as part of the travel rule?

Example: Player is dribbling and allows the ball to come to rest in one hand, taking three steps, with no additional dribble, while the ball is being carried/palmed.

In reality, we don't really need a carrying/palming rule. The travel rule, or the dribble rule, will take care of all types of carrying/palming.

There is no carrying/palming listed under Rule 9 Violations, but there is a signal on the signal chart. Odd?

Camron Rust Wed Dec 27, 2017 07:19pm
As the others said, it depends on what happens next. Trapping/pinning/catching the ball on the hip with the hand just end the dribble. If the player just stops there, you have nothing. If the player dribbles again, it is an illegal dribble that we classify as a carry for clarity. If the player moves his/her feet in excess of the limits for traveling, they have traveled. It is possible they continue to a shot without violating.

JRutledge Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1013689)
I realize that palming/carrying is part of the dribble rule, but can't we also call palming/carrying as part of the travel rule?

Example: Player is dribbling and allows the ball to come to rest in one hand, taking three steps, with no additional dribble, while the ball is being carried/palmed.

In reality, we don't really need a carrying/palming rule. The travel rule, or the dribble rule, will take care of all types of carrying/palming.

There is no carrying/palming listed under Rule 9 Violations, but there is a signal on the signal chart. Odd?
You are reading too much into this as the OPer is reading too much into the rule. It is really not that deep.

Peace

BillyMac Thu Dec 28, 2017 06:52am
Clarity ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1013693)
... with the hand just end the dribble ... carry for clarity ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1013704)
It is really not that deep.
Agree. We really don't need the carry/palm signal. The travel signal, or illegal dribble signal, will suffice for any such situation where a "carry" occurs. Check out Rule 9 Violations, there is no carry/palm violation listed. As Camron Rust already pointed out, the palm/carry signal is just for clarity. Once the dribble ends, if there is another dribble, it's an illegal dribble; if there is not another dribble and the player moves his feet in excess of the prescribed limits, it's a travel.

so cal lurker Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1013708)
Agree. We really don't need the carry/palm signal. The travel signal, or illegal dribble signal, will suffice for any such situation where a "carry" occurs. Check out Rule 9 Violations, there is no carry/palm violation listed. As Camron Rust already pointed out, the palm/carry signal is just for clarity. Once the dribble ends, if there is another dribble, it's an illegal dribble; if there is not another dribble and the player moves his feet in excess of the prescribed limits, it's a travel.
Heck, if you want to go that route, you don’t need the travel or illegal dribble signal either—all you need is the signal there was a violation. (That’s the soccer philosophy of signals—just signal what will happen and get the game going.) As CR said, the signal for palming/carrying is just there for a bit of added clarity. But then, y’all don’t call it anymore, so maybe it is a pointless signal. :p

JRutledge Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1013749)
Heck, if you want to go that route, you don’t need the travel or illegal dribble signal either—all you need is the signal there was a violation. (That’s the soccer philosophy of signals—just signal what will happen and get the game going.) As CR said, the signal for palming/carrying is just there for a bit of added clarity. But then, y’all don’t call it anymore, so maybe it is a pointless signal. :p
Called it last night in two different games. It is just not a carry when people claim it is a carry. People do not understand the rule. ;)

Peace

so cal lurker Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1013753)
Called it last night in two different games. It is just not a carry when people claim it is a carry. People do not understand the rule. ;)

Peace
Alas, I also think that too many refs don’t understand it as well. And yes, I realize that what is understood as a carry is different from when I played. From the comfort of the stands it is one of the least consistent calls—especially sub varsity and weaker varsity refs. And, of course, smart players will push the boundaries of what isn’t called.

JRutledge Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1013757)
Alas, I also think that too many refs don’t understand it as well. And yes, I realize that what is understood as a carry is different from when I played. From the comfort of the stands it is one of the least consistent calls—especially sub varsity and weaker varsity refs. And, of course, smart players will push the boundaries of what isn’t called.
The point is to call the obvious ones, just like any other violation.

But the problem is every time a player has his hands in a particular location, people yell about a carry when it clearly is not a carry or the ball never comes to rest. You do not want to be overly technical on any rule that will open up a can of worms by making those calls. And usually, it is typical to call those when there is an actual move that is used to try to get by a defender. Simply standing in one place is not going to draw a violation unless you want to be calling them all night. If you are talking about sub-varsity officials and what they call, we have an issue there alone. I do not expect sub-varsity officials to call anything as they should or they would not be working sub-varsity games in the first place.

Peace

Kansas Ref Fri Dec 29, 2017 01:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1013760)
The point is to call the obvious ones, just like any other violation.

But the problem is every time a player has his hands in a particular location, people yell about a carry when it clearly is not a carry or the ball never comes to rest.

*Ha ha--yes the crowd and opposing coach can be quite animated on such.

You do not want to be overly technical on any rule that will open up a can of worms by making those calls. And usually, it is typical to call those when there is an actual move that is used to try to get by a defender. Simply standing in one place is not going to draw a violation unless you want to be calling them all night.

*Ignoring the ''carry/illegal dribble" when there is no offensive action usually opens one up to applying a "double standard". I mean suppose that the dribbler is just trying to burn time in a close game--and still insists on performing illegal dribbles? We must get that call despite the circumstantial culture of ignoring it.

If you are talking about sub-varsity officials and what they call, we have an issue there alone. I do not expect sub-varsity officials to call anything as they should or they would not be working sub-varsity games in the first place.

*Whoaaa, JRut, let's not disparage subvarsity refs [weren't we all subvarsity refs at one time?].
Good Subvarsity refs are just as inclined to make proper calls as a good varsity ref would be. A weaker subvar ref is equivalent to a weaker var ref.

Peace
*Just my 2 cents worth.

JRutledge Fri Dec 29, 2017 02:39pm
Quote:
*Ignoring the ''carry/illegal dribble" when there is no offensive action usually opens one up to applying a "double standard". I mean suppose that the dribbler is just trying to burn time in a close game--and still insists on performing illegal dribbles? We must get that call despite the circumstantial culture of ignoring it.
I did not say anything about ignoring anything. I said not to be overly technical as I would not about any violation when it honestly is not obvious or is not something that the person at the top row of the gym can see. Just like I would not call 3 seconds on a player that has a toenail in the lane. I would want their foot or feet firmly planted in the lane. Same applies here, it would have to be obvious and usually, it is obvious when they are making a move. It is not obvious when no one is within 10 feet of the ball handler and you call a "carry" because a player is alone doing nothing but dribbling the ball. Sorry, not a great career move to make those kinds of calls on a regular basis.

Quote:
*Whoaaa, JRut, let's not disparage subvarsity refs [weren't we all subvarsity refs at one time?].
Good Subvarsity refs are just as inclined to make proper calls as a good varsity ref would be. A weaker subvar ref is equivalent to a weaker var ref.
Get the stick out of your ass. Maybe your area is different, but where I am the reason guys work sub-varsity games, is because they are not considered good enough to work varsity by the people that assign the games. And some of us were sub varsity officials longer than others. But where I live varsity officials are paid more (for the same amount of time) and work fewer games in a night overall. And a brand new official is not going to work varsity because they are not considered experienced, as knowledgeable about the rules, do not have a good understanding of mechanic and basically are not experienced to deal with the pressure that varsity brings. If stating that is a dig, then we really need to evaluate how assignments are made.

Peace


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