travel off a dribble.
 

Im a new Ref studying for my test. I was watching this highschool game online for some practice and came across an akward play(link below).

https://youtu.be/3uh7dtDSv1I?t=11m27s

At 11:35 when #5 gains possession of the ball he establishes his left foot as his pivot. Seems to me his pivot comes off the ground before the ball leaves his hand to start dribbling. Shouldn't this be a travel.

Secondly. When #5 continues the play and "jump stops'; isn't this a travel as well. He has gathered the ball with his left foot on the ground, then does not land simultaneously on both feet.

thoughts?

If you're talking about the play on 11:35 film time, I do not see a travel off the dribble. The jump stop is by definition a travel. Left off one foot and came down one foot at a time. These plays are hard to pick up as there is a lot if activity around the dribbler on the jump stop and an official may not always be paying as much attention to the feet as the other activity.

Eh. I don't see a travel anywhere. Certainly not at 11:35 and I don't think he gathers the dribble until he's mid-air on that "Jump stop."

What do you mean by "gather?" What does that word mean?

travel off a dribble.
 

What BigCat would have said if he were in a better mood is that “gather” is announcer-speak for “ending the dribble.” The dribble ends while the dribbler is airborne. 2nd foot down is the pivot, but it doesn’t return to the floor until after the try has been released. No travel.

Frankly, even if the dribble had ended before the dribbler alighted with one foot, I’m probably not going to judge a simultaneous landing with any degree of certainty, and thus I’m passing on that one. If you call those marginal cases, A) often you’ll be wrong, and B) you’ll have a long season.

A wiseman once said: “Better to pass on a travel that was there than to call one that wasn’t.”


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The term "gather" is not announcer speak at all. It is a description of when a dribble ends. To end the dribble the ball has to essentially be gathered by the ball handler for that dribble to stop or "caught" on some level. Just saying the dribble stops does not often explain what actually happened. I am all for rulebook terms, but rulebook terms do not describe everything.

Peace

So much easier to embed the video BTW.
 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3uh7dtDSv1I?start=687" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Agree. "Gather", as is it is often used, is often referring to a point that is actually after the end of the dribble. Gather is typically used to describe a ball being secured in both hands or otherwise pulled into the body. But that is not how the end of a dribble is defined at any level. By definition, the dribble ends when the ball comes to rest in ONE or BOTH hands.

So, when a player gets one hand under the ball such that another dribble would be a carry, the dribble has ended and travel rules are in effect at that moment.

Take off is a travel but I had to freeze frame to see If foot came down after catch or on catch. By definition travel looked travelish but couldn’t see it for sure live.

Easier call is the pass to the player in question as passer clearly changes pivot feet on play. IME travels while not intended to be subjective are regionally often determined by impact and obviousness rather than letter of the law. As someone who has spent a long time being that guy on travels. You really don’t wanna be that guy.

The dribble ends the moment hand goes under the ball. That's when you look to see what foot is on the ground. Which is the pivot. "Gather" makes people think the ball has to be caught/two hands before you look for the pivot. That's wrong. The term doesn't help. That's my opinion. And I agree with it��

That makes 6 of us. ;)

What if they grab it with one hand up top? There are players that do not need to put their hand under the ball to stop their dribble. So we cannot assume that is the only way to stop a dribble and neither does the rules suggest that is the only way to end a dribble. The rules actually says, "Catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands." It does not say the dribble only ends when the ball is under the hands or hands. The term is used to describe when a dribble ends as most people know what a "gather" of the ball means. Saying the dribble ends can mean different things to different people.

But when most players are trying to go to the basket and take a shot, they typically grab the ball with both hands.

Peace

Yeah, you can end the dribble with hand on top by palming it. Ending the dribble is the way to describe it. Gather makes people think two hands are required. And when most people go to the basket the dribble ends in one hand and the other is comes right after. Very rarely does the dribble end with both hands on ball at same time. Left or right hand brings it to the other. Gather makes people think two hands required. Not the rule.

You understand that dribble can end with one hand on bottom top etc. that's what gather means to you. But to most people when they hear gather they think two hands required. Dribble ends covers everything.

Again in my experience, most players stop the dribble when they want to pass and shoot and do so with both hands. Usually, they are showboating or making a very risky play if they do not grab the ball with both hands. And to many, that is how we were taught on some level to grab the ball.

Also, I think if you are splitting hairs with how a dribble ends when the player is bringing the ball to both of their hands, then you will be awful inconsistent (IMO) in trying to determine what a fast moving player is doing. I like to use the "gather" or when players being the ball together with both of their hands because it is clearer when that took place and most of the time.

So you lose me when you want to make it sound like the use of "gather" is confusing when that is what players do on these kinds of play and they make a move to the basket as in this video. He attempted a jump stop and shot attempt. It is just a line of demarcation. It is not the only way a dribble can end, but most plays like this do not end any other way.

Peace

My thoughts are that you're trying to have the best eyes in the gym and show off your rules knowledge. Don't do that.

I need you to tell me how to do this...This kid ends dribble somehow with both hands below waste. I agree in this play you cant really tell if dribble ends in one hand. his hands are damn near together so i would not split hairs on this one. On the standard layup i think it is obvious that the player ends dribble in one hand and brings it over to the other and then goes up. If you said pivot rules done apply until two hands on ball then he gets an extra half or full step. Again, this play i agree. I cant tell when he ends dribble and wouldnt split hairs.

What i will say is it does no good to be the only guy on the court calling travel.

But the player in this play gathered the ball with two hands. Not understanding why it matters about anything else right now.

Peace

I agree in this play the kid "ended the dribble with two hands." Or was close enough that I cant tell. Again, I really think most dribble are ended with one hand and brought to the other. Most people that i hear think "gather" means the dribble cant end until two hands on the ball. You agree two hands arent required. I just dont like the term gathered for what i know it means to most other people. Nothing more nothing less..

I need to learn how to post video stuff etc...when you have time.

I think people use the term "gather" in relation to starting a shooting motion. I rarely hear it used when it comes to traveling alone.

Peace

It does make more sense there. Just never been a fan of the term...

I can't see the video at work, but how would the 2nd foot down be the pivot?

You’re right. Brain fart. Meant to say 1st foot.


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This sort of smells of a coach unhappy with a call trying to get validation. Just my $.02.

Also, I think if you are splitting hairs with how a dribble ends when the player is bringing the ball to both of their hands, then you will be awful inconsistent (IMO) in trying to determine what a fast moving player is doing. I like to use the "gather" or when players being the ball together with both of their hands because it is clearer when that took place and most of the time.

Above is why NFHS and NCAA are the only two rule sets in the world still trying to use this determination to establish pivot foot. NBA and FIBA both now have "zero" step on catch/when dribble is ended by moving player and first foot contact after that is first step and pivot foot.

As their are multiple ways to end dribble/gather/(insert appropriate descriptive language) and determining when exactly this happens is inexact in real time all other rule sets are now establishing pivot foot after we can clearly see the ball has been caught/picked up.

At least for the NBA, people claim there is traveling when the rule might not support their claim. I do not think any of this changes because of the rules set that are being used.

Peace

Whether you have the NBA/FIBA rule or the NFHS/NCAA rule, you still have some action that marks the when the traveling rules come into effect, regardless of how much foot movement is permitted. All the FIBA/NBA rules have done is make it so that more foot movement after a catch is legal...but there is still a specific point at which the travel rules begin. When was the ball caught? And, then, how much foot movement is legal.