illegal substitutions

[oc]

Just another ref refers to a situation where a principle got upset about T'ing kids for illegal substitutions. The Principle was out of line the way he dealt with the situation- but it got me wondering:
how do you deal with illegal substitutions? i.e. kids coming on to the court without being beckoned. In my association the other refs just send the kid back and teach them what they did wrong. I do the same-I don't want to be the only one handing out T's for this. What do you guys do? Does it depend on the level?

(our problem is compounded by inexperienced scorers who don't always sound the horn for subs.- I TRY to take care of that before the game.)

[Edited by oc on Oct 6th, 2003 at 03:16 AM]

[just another ref]

The illegal substitution I referred to happened in an 8th grade girls game. A1 got her 4th foul. (still in the 1st half) The coach beckoned A2. A2 leaped from the bench and ran straight onto the court. A1 dropped her head, shuffled over to the bench and sat down. I looked at first one player and then the other, and then at the coach. The coach
was a young lady who apparently had very little experience in basketball of any kind, but she now realized that her team had screwed up. I softly explained that this was not acceptable, that the sub must report, etc. The coach ducked her own head and apologized. Instead of T'ing both players, A1 for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason and A2 for entering without being beckoned, I compromised and called 1 and charged it to the coach. I know that this has no basis in the books, but it just seemed reasonable at the time. My rule of thumb is in jr. high if a player has properly reported at the table and I can intercept that player on the way into the court, I merely send him back. If the player races out into the crowd as soon as he hears the buzzer, or, even worse, without reporting at all, I have been known to call the T. In varsity games, this is something that we stress to both coaches and captains in pregame, so if a player forgets and enters too soon, well, he shoulda known better.

[canuckrefguy]

Of course, I wasn't there, but I don't know if I would have given a T on this one.

To me, the illegal substitution T has to involve some kind of intent to deceive, a chronic pattern of bad substitutions that hinder the game, or a coach who's clearly just choosing to ignore instructions from the officials.

It's Jr. High, after all. They sometimes do wonky things, especially with a coach who doesn't know better.

You did well to calmly explain to the coach that what she was doing wasn't appropriate. I'd have left it with that.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Of course, I wasn't there, but I don't know if I would have given a T on this one.


It's Jr. High, after all. They sometimes do wonky things, especially with a coach who doesn't know better.

You did well to calmly explain to the coach that what she was doing wasn't appropriate. I'd have left it with that.

Your argument is similar to what the principal said at the time. I feel that this is a legitimate angle and, if he had said this in a nicer way, I might have enjoyed discussing it with him. My theory, however, is that if you merely say, "No, honey, you have to report first," and lead them by the hand to the table, they might remember it in the next quarter or the next game. If you call a T, they will be much more likely to remember it a lot longer.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
It's Jr. High, after all. They sometimes do wonky things, especially with a coach who doesn't know better.

Wonky. I love that. Anyway, back before I officiated, I coached a Freshman boys team. The girls team was coached by a former volleyball player. She had no idea about rules or strategy. She had 5 players waiting at the table to sub into the game. After a period of a minute or two without a whistle (I know, how is that possible in a girls Freshman game? ), the coach yells, "SUBS!", makes the traveling signal (which is the signal for a sub in volleyball apparently) and tells all 5 girls to run onto the floor.

The official stopped play and sent them all back to the table. I honestly don't remember if any T's were called.

But the whole boys team laughed themselves silly. It was pretty funny. The only other thing I remember about the officiating in that game was that the girls kind of lost track of the clock at the end of one period and took a 70-foot shot with about 6 seconds left. It was well short of the basket. The other team caught the ball in their own backcourt and launched their own 70-foot shot before the horn sounded. As each shot was in the air, the official loudly announced "Good if it goes!" Both times! Eesh.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

Wonky. I love that.

[/B][/QUOTE]Being an Oompa Loompa,you would.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by oc
Just another ref refers to a situation where a principle got upset about T'ing kids for illegal substitutions. The Principle was out of line the way he dealt with the situation- but it got me wondering:
how do you deal with illegal substitutions? i.e. kids coming on to the court without being beckoned. In my association the other refs just send the kid back and teach them what they did wrong. I do the same-I don't want to be the only one handing out T's for this. What do you guys do? Does it depend on the level?

(our problem is compounded by inexperienced scorers who don't always sound the horn for subs.- I TRY to take care of that before the game.)

The kind of "illegal substitutions" that involve deception, or a live ball, or too many players on the court, need a T every time. The kind that are only inexperience and ignorance of the accepted protocol never get a T from me, even at the varsity level. But they never happen at the varsity level. Even when the kid runs onto the floor without checking in, you just get real firm and explain in no uncertain terms that they can't do that, and make them walk through the whole thing again correctly. Don't just tell them, make them actually physically do it. (Notice that in this activity, you're also instructing the 6th grade scorekeeper) Even if they forget next time, you don't T them. Even the last game of the season, you don't T them. Be sure the coach understands the whole thing, so he/she can stop them next time. But don't T her. she's got enough problems already, and doesn't need another reason to have a conference with the AD.

If it happens two or three times in a game, and you feel the coach is being negligent, you say, "Coach you know, this actually should get a T, but I'm letting you off light because I don't want to punish the girls' inexperience, but get them under control, eh?" or south of NorthDakota nad Minnesota, "... get them under control, okay?" That will get her attention without you being overly obnoxious.

[mick]

Last Thursday (Girls' Varsity) I called a foul, and as I was beginning my report, the excited defensive sub, who had checked in, ran onto the floor and into position in front of the player she was to guard.

I finished my report and held up a stop sign to my partner, who was baseline and ready to administer the throw-in, while I stepped toward the unbeckoned sub and said, "You should wait to be beckoned onto the floor. In many polite circles, you will have earned a technical foul."

I trust she'll remember that instance without having been whacked.

mick

[Barry C. Morris]

Originally posted by mick
...I stepped toward the unbeckoned sub and said, "You should wait to be beckoned onto the floor. In many polite circles, you will have earned a technical foul."

Given the company you keep here with us, I find it very hard to believe that you've ever been in or near a polite circle.

[mick]

Originally posted by Barry C. Morris

Given the company you keep here with us, I find it very hard to believe that you've ever been in or near a polite circle.

Barry,
That may well be the reason that player wasn't penalized, ...because I was nearing unfamiliar territory.
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Being an Oompa Loompa,you would.

I don't have to take that from you, you pernicious kanid!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I don't have to take that from you, you pernicious kanid!

Now you've done it. I'm going to look that up!

[Jurassic Referee]

Do you mean "canid", Khukh?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by just another ref
The illegal substitution I referred to happened in an 8th grade girls game. A1 got her 4th foul. (still in the 1st half) The coach beckoned A2. A2 leaped from the bench and ran straight onto the court. A1 dropped her head, shuffled over to the bench and sat down. I looked at first one player and then the other, and then at the coach. The coach
was a young lady who apparently had very little experience in basketball of any kind, but she now realized that her team had screwed up. I softly explained that this was not acceptable, that the sub must report, etc. The coach ducked her own head and apologized. Instead of T'ing both players, A1 for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason and A2 for entering without being beckoned, I compromised and called 1 and charged it to the coach. I know that this has no basis in the books, but it just seemed reasonable at the time. My rule of thumb is in jr. high if a player has properly reported at the table and I can intercept that player on the way into the court, I merely send him back. If the player races out into the crowd as soon as he hears the buzzer, or, even worse, without reporting at all, I have been known to call the T. In varsity games, this is something that we stress to both coaches and captains in pregame, so if a player forgets and enters too soon, well, he shoulda known better.

Holy cow.

2 T's for this? T the coach? T for running on during a dead ball? In an 8th grade girls game? T players for not waiting for the arm wave?

Holy cow.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Do you mean "canid", Khukh?

Beats me. He pronouces it kuh-NID. I thought he made it up, so I made up the spelling. Now, please hold all questions till the end of the tour.