Close game, not high scoring, but both teams are working their tails off. Three point shot goes up, the shooter comes back to the floor, then gets vigorously "boxed out" and knocked off his spot by a couple of feet. I call the foul.

The coach wants to talk about it. When I explain that you can't just shove the guy off his spot, he replies, "they're coached to do that." And, of course, one of the players chimes in, "it's called boxing out." So far, just par for the course.

Then the coach informs me that, "a good referee would not have made that call." At that point I walk away and we throw the ball in.

After a good nights sleep I'm now wondering if I should have Td him up for a rather obvious insult directly to my face. I'd like your opinions, what would you have done?

Whack him for a comment like this.

"A good coach doesn't teach his players to commit stupid fouls." Then......WHACK.

I think i would have walked away also--if he made another comment i would t him up but why not walk at first

What did you call? The shot was up, the player returned to the floor, yeah, maybe he was pushed on the aggresive box out but was there any chance that he was still in the play?

Quote:

The coach wants to talk about it. When I explain that you can't just shove the guy off his spot, he replies, "they're coached to do that." And, of course, one of the players chimes in, "it's called boxing out." So far, just par for the course. Then the coach informs me that, "a good referee would not have made that call." At that point I walk away and we throw the ball in.

Assuming this is a comment he made to you and only you heard it, it was good to ignore & move on. If he yelled it across the floor as you're walking away then you gotta bang his @ss good.

Quote:

After a good nights sleep I'm now wondering if I should have Td him up for a rather obvious insult directly to my face. I'd like your opinions, what would you have done?

My opinion: as I read it I would not have called the foul to begin with (good refs don't make this call ;) ). If I did see something I didn't like and called a foul I might have explained it this way: "Coach, I can't have your player doing blah blah blah. I know you don't teach them to do that". But it would have to be a BIG something. In any event, you walked over to him for this discussion, if he's reasonable about it you can't T him up. You are allowed to just say nothing when asked a question.

This is a judgement call...a certain level of "boxing out" contact has to be allowed, but one of the reasons we stay with the shooter when that shot goes up is to catch the fouls that happen after the shooter lands.

Gets knocked back a couple feet, I'd say no-call.

Anything more than that, or if the shooter ends up on his butt, call it. Boxing out is not a free pass to body check.

As for the coach and kid, walk away. It doesn't sound like it was one of those yell-across-the-court-and-show-up-the-ref type comments.

"Coach, a good ref wouldn't be working this game!"

Reminds me of my favorite comeback:

"Hey ref, you're missing a great game!"
"Yeah, I know, but they sent me here tonight."

"Ref, you're missing a great game!"
"What, you've got a TV over there?!"

Nice! It's in my bag now!

One variant on these....

"Hey ref, you're missing a good game"

"Yeah, I know...but I don't always get to ref at (fierce rival school they hate)...sometimes they make me come here".

I might have a no-call on that play, but the comment he made earn a T from me.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Oct 3rd, 2003 at 05:07 AM]

Why walk away a let the coach get away with a totally (IMO) unacceptable comment. The comment is over the line and needs to be addressed. why let him walk on you?

This goes in the book!

My 2 cents...
 

I don't think I've ever seen a player get knocked off his spot ONLY a few feet by a vigorous block-out. To me, a vigorous block-out almost always puts an opposing player on his/her behind. That draws a whistle from me everytime...everytime I see it, that is! ;)

Too many players these days have spent too much time watching Reggie Miller, et al, as they fall down after ever shot trying to get a call. If I see this, I usually tell the player, "Get up! You're not gettin' that tonight unless it's real!" That usually puts an end to it.

General rule of thumb for the coach: If he goes over the line but no one else hears it, I probably let it go...but he/she grandstands and others hear it, WHACK.

Ding him for sure, but DO NOT reply with a snide comment of your own before you do it. That's the sort of thing that will cause assignors to not give you as many games.

I'm sure Mark Padgett was joking, but still...

Re: My 2 cents...
 

That's <b>your</b> general rule of thumb. Personally,if I can hear a coach say something derogatory,he's getting nailed. Over the line is over the line,no matter what! If you don't nail him,he sureashell is gonna be doing it again. That's <b>my</b> general rule of thumb.

I think you're right, Trigger. (Sheez, I can hear that music in the background...that steel guitar...that crooning voice)

In my experience, a Davism usually only makes matters worse. On rare occasion, it can help, but then a T isn't needed! The only reason for the T is to make the game better, and if a Davism will do the job, great. But that isn't very often.

Mark's bark is worse than his bite. At least, to all the reasonable and calm coaches.

WOOF! WOOF!

Back In The Saddle,
Good post!

For me, the timing of the blockout is a consideration.

Had the shooter landed solidly with balance, I may have no-called.
Had the block occured before the shooter had a chance to land cleanly, I may have called a block and explained to the coach that we officials have been told to follow the shooter to the floor, and that there was too much unecessarily rough contact.

mick

I had a similar one to this
 

On mine the shooter landed and the defense player had a good box out. Then as the shooter was trying to get around him, he kept backing up pushing him about 8-10 feet. I called the foul and the player said something like "What, with my butt?" and I said yes. To me the contact impeded the movement of the offensive player trying to get to a rebounding position.

On the coach's comment, I would have just said "That's enough, coach". That usually lets them know what will happen next and the focus gets back to the present and not the past call.

I have called the same foul when on a rebound one player displaces another. I have also gotten the same response from coaches and players. My reply is "Coach he can box him out, but he can't push him out".

I also know a lot of players are taught to back their opponent out. They are trying to get an,(excuse the phrase)"over the back" call. My wife, the coach, says she will have her players do it until they get called for it.

I have no problem calling it unless it happens too far away from the play to say a player was put at a disadvantage.

If the block occurs while the shooter is still in the air, i.e. airborne shooter, and the shot is missed I have 3 FT's for the shooter...if shot is made then 1 FT of course.
Is this how you call this mick?

RD

RookieDude,
YU.P., if the shooter is still airborne from behind the arc, we can give the shooter 3 chances.
If the shooter had landed, let's give 'im two. :)
mick

my rule of thumb
 

on boxing out: First 1 to 2 feet of displacement is usually a good boxout, next 6 to 8 feet would be a foul. I have explained that very concept to player and coach when asked and have had no argument. Also, I would not tolerate the coach's comment - especially if anyone else overheard. To allow the comment to go by without action would invite further abuse for you, your crew, and for future refs. Cute remarks from a ref often get interpreted as "baiting" from an upset coach. In my mind, if you make cute remarks, it would be unfair to call the "T".

Two FT's if the shot is over? Intentional foul?:confused:

It's the 10th foul.

Doesn't say that anywhere above,does it? Could be 1/1 onF7 to F9.Could be possession before that.

No?

Sorry! M'bad!
My mind had 2 as opposed to three, and I should have said "up to two only".
...But then we all knew that didn't we? :rolleyes:
mick

Not if mick's shooting two, it couldn't. :)

Nuthin' like a good partner to cover yer back. ;)
Thanks, Chuck.

Without knowing all of the details of the game, it's really hard to say.

You stated that it was a close game. How much time remained on the clock? Did you have any similiar plays during the game like this one? If the coach taugh their players to box out like that then they would have been doing this all game and you guys should have been making that call in the 1st half.

Saying all this, I probably would not have called that foul. As for the "T", if (the coach said it whereby only a few people may have heard the comment, then I would have given them a warning. If the comment were loud... direct technical on the coach.

We want to make "quality" calls throughout the game... especially during the last 5 minutes of the game.

I call the foul. Someone gave a very good explanation. You can block out but not push out. Once they make contact, they can't continue to back out the other player. I'll also call a hold if while boxing out, they hook the player with their outstretched arms and it hinders the player from going around. To T or not is a personal choice. I'd probably have ignored it but ya never know until it happens.

Mregor

This box out but not push out was the philosophy I was employing. However, it seems that most everybody else would disagree with us. In the future, I'll probably pass on this call. However, in the paint I'll still call the "clear out." The POE seems very clear about displacement.

As for the call, it was in the second half. It had not happened before (or afterward) in that game, and was so uncharacteristically aggressive compared to the play in the rest of the game, that I called it without a second thought.

As to the T, I think I'll just show him the stop sign...and then WHACK him if he carries on, even a little.

My ususal response to that is...Coach it's box out NOT!!!! CLEAR OUT. As far as the personal attack I say

WACK!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Quote:

As to the T, I think I'll just show him the stop sign...and then WHACK him if he carries on, even a little.

Ray--don't let the guy walk on you. don't let him think he can make unwarranted and highly inappropriate comments.