No try, ball dead on foul
 

Tonight in game 3 Lebron tried to lob it into the post, Love was fouled while the ball was in the air, and it went it. I think everybody in the building agreed it was a pass. Announcers were saying it didn't matter, you can't judge intent, etc. and resident NBA officiating expert Steve Javey agreed it was the right call. So the NBA rule is different then? You obviously can/must judge intent at times in all levels. So, in NFHS, the basket doesn't count.

Most times NBA rules differ. They counted the basket and Love then shot one free throw. Would you ever award one free throw to a player who is being fouled while his teammate is in the act of shooting in NFHS? That is the NBA rule.

If a ball goes in the basket, and I'm officiating, then the intent was to score. I'm not smart enough to judge intent on a made basket. It's tough enough for borderline INT/flagrant fouls.

How do you ever judge if a player is in the act of shooting when fouled? ;)

You had to ask that didn't you. You are responsible for what's to come.

I don't believe intent is even under consideration when scoring a basket.

Section 1. ART. 1 . . . A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through. No goal is scored if an untouched throw-in goes through the basket.

Sure it is. A goal is not necessarily a try. If it is not a try or act of shooting, the ball becomes dead immediately on the expiration of time or on a whistle. If it is a try in such cases, the dead ball is delayed until try ends. If a player is in the act of shooting, the dead ball is delayed (on whistles for defensive fouls) until the try ends.

The difference between a try that results in a goal and a non-try that results in a goal is all about intent.

It's Not That Simple ...
 

A1 passes the ball to A2, who isn't looking for the ball. The ball hits A2 on the shoulder, and bounces into the air, eventually passing through the basket. No complicating factors like end of period, foul, etc.

The ball went in the basket. Was there an intent to score?

4-41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.
ART. 4 The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.
ART. 5 A tap for goal is the contacting of the ball with any part of a player’s
hand(s) in an attempt to direct the ball into his/her basket.
ART. 6 A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as
in 5-2-5.
ART. 7 The tap starts when the player’s hand(s) touches the ball.
ART. 8 The tap ends in exactly the same manner as a try.

Now, just for fun, who wants to talk about complicating factors while the ball is in flight toward the basket?

Please don't waste our time with this stuff. Team A shoots and misses, A1 goes to rebound but the ball bounces off his shoulder and go in the basket.

Go ahead, cancel the goal. I'll love watching the youtube videos of you go viral.

Billy's example is obviously an extreme one. But intent is obviously a question which sometimes must be answered. A1 leaps in the air and is clobbered before he can release the ball. You must decide whether to award 2 shots or not. So why is the OP any different? You must decide whether to count the basket or wave it off.

Back to the original question, which is: What, if anything, causes a ball in flight to be dead in the NBA?

Jeff Van Gundy?

Why ??? Why ??? Why ??? Why ???
 

NFHS rules. No complicating factors like end of period, foul, etc. Why (in either situation above) would I cancel this goal? Why would any official even think about canceling this goal? Why would deecee think that I would cancel this goal and become a YouTube viral sensation? Why would deecee think that any official worth his salt on this Forum would even consider canceling this goal?

Billy's Funhouse ...
 

Let the fun begin.

A player throws the ball directly into the basket with an off ball foul? It was gonna be a lob attempt but no way in hell I'm not awarding the basket...especially with a non touch by the lobbed player.

Ok I stand corrected on the scenario where a foul is occurring. But take that away, no foul occurring, if the ball just bounces off someone and goes in the basket (as Billy Mac's example illustrated), that basket should be counted and intent does not matter.

If we apply NFHS to the LeBron case the other night, given the luxury of several replays it looks like the foul occurs slightly before the pass goes in the basket. Technically the ball is dead and the basket should not be scored. However in real time I think it would be difficult to tell that difference and I think I would say they were simultaneous and I would count the basket and award the ball to white on the end line for the foul. My 2c.

This is from the 2013-2014 NBA rule book.

Section IV—Dead Ball
a. The ball becomes dead and/or remains dead when the following occurs:
(1) Official blows his/her whistle
(2) Free throw which will not remain in play (free throw which will be followed by another free throw, technical, flagrant, etc.)
(3) Following a successful field goal or free throw that will remain in play, until player possession out-of-bounds. Contact which is NOT considered unsportsmanlike shall be ignored. (Rule 12A—Section V—i)
(4) Time expires for the end of any period

EXCEPTION: If a field goal attempt is in flight, the ball becomes dead when the goal is made, missed or touched by an offensive player.

A live ball that goes in the basket always counts (with one exception). Perhaps that is what you're getting at.

However, a ball that bounces off someone (or the floor) and into the basket isn't a try (at least not anymore). As such, the possibility of a delayed dead ball is over. That is not only for fouls but includes expiration of time (game clock or, when relevant, shot clock).

So, unless an intended try is in progress, no shot can be scored if the event occurs before the ball goes in the basket.

All that said, if there is any doubt as to whether it is a try or not, it IS a try.

Yes that is what I am getting at. Thanks for the clarification.

Oooh, Oooh, Oooh, Oooh ...
 

Please call on me.

No goal is scored if an untouched throwin goes through the basket.

https://youtu.be/-cDAqrywsHE

You Make The Call ...
 

A1 passes the ball to A2, who isn't looking for the ball. The ball hits A2 on the shoulder, and bounces into the air ...

1) While the ball is in flight, before it goes into the basket, B3 fouls A3. The ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team A is not in the bonus. You make the call.

2) While the ball is in flight, before it goes into the basket, A3 fouls B3. The ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team B is not in the bonus. You make the call.

3) The ball is on the ring and B3 bats the ball off the ring. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

4) While the ball is in flight, B3 touches the ball while it is in its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, and it has the possibility of entering the basket. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

5) As the ball is bouncing off of A1's shoulder, B2 pushes A1, the ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team A is not in the bonus. You make the call.

6) As the ball is bouncing off of A1's shoulder, B3 pushes A3, the ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team A is not in the bonus. You make the call.

7) As the ball is bouncing off of A1's shoulder, A3 pushes B3, the ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team B is not in the bonus. You make the call.

8) While the ball is in flight, before it goes into the basket, the horn sounds to end the period. The ball subsequently goes into the basket. You make the call.

Usually ...
 

Please back off the statement below:

Please explain what statement of mine lead one to believe that I wouldn't count the basket (below):

Usually, the ball enters the basket as the result of a try, but sometimes it doesn't. When that rare event happens, it's important to understand the ramifications of the rule.

Sorry if I misunderstood you. It's tough sometimes when most of your posts are pages long and certain phrases are highlighted, along with your penchant for the absurd when it comes to what ifs. I'm sure in person you are very nice, but I would hope you would start summarizing your posts. :)

Extreme Situations ...
 

As the young'uns say, no problem.

The extreme situations in my earlier post test an official's knowledge of the definition of a try, and the ramifications of a ball going in the basket when there is no try involved. These situations also demonstrate the need for an official's understanding of continuous motion, basket interference, goaltending, and the end of a period.

How often does one see these extreme situations? Certainly, not very often, but an understanding of these extreme situations can lead one to become more proficient in applying rules to more common situations that we see all the time.

Check out these thought provoking situations:

A) A1's untouched throwin is in the cylinder above the A's basket ring when B1 touches the ball. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

B) A1's untouched throwin is on its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, with the possibility of the ball entering A's basket, when B1 touches the ball. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

1) BI - score 2 points - I wish I could find my rule book to verify this one.
2) Nothing

Bingo ...
 

Give the man a cigar.

Point? It does matter whether it's basket interference, or goaltending. They are not the same thing, and thus, do not have the same penalty.

It's also interesting that a player can't score off a throwin, but the basket can be awarded.