Block/Charge Do you think C should have had this?(video)
 

Do you think the C should have had this play? Did the lead have, or miss, an opportunity that he should have rotated?



<iframe src="https://vid.me/e/85cJ?stats=1" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen scrolling="no"></iframe>

Current officiating mechanics give this play to the Lead as it involves a secondary defender. The C has the action with the dribbler and the primary defender. Once she beats that player and the help defender comes from the lane to try to take a charge, the responsibility passes to the Lead.

That said, the call should have been a charge. The Lead needs to prepare for the play by moving to the close-down position instead of remaining out wide.

I don't believe that the Lead has time to rotate on this play as it is a pass to the wing and an immediate dribble drive after the catch, but he didn't give himself a chance by staying so wide. Getting to the close-down spot is necessary.

I do not have a problem with the L making this call because he is officiating the defense in the paint. But I do have a problem with both the L and C.

The L should have been closing down before the offensive player started her drive to the basket.

The C was too far out. He was on a line that was tangent to the top of the key and perpendicular to his sideline. His starting point should have been at the free throw line extended. And he too did not close down as the offensive player started her drive to the basket. Had the C used better positioning he too could have made this charge call.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. I just read NevadaRef's comments. I agree 100% with him (except a philosophical one with regard to using the term: secondary defender. There is no such thing as a secondary defender.) I never watched what the L called and I am appalled that he called a block on such an easy charge call. The C should have really made this call and the C should be making a charge call here.

The L should've closed down and pinched the paint to about the O on the floor. Would've been a perfect look.

Not enough time to rotate, IMO

L call on the secondary defender. Neither official appeared to be working hard to get the best look(s).

Both L and C set in concrete.
L should have at least been at close down position when ball was on perimeter above the key, which, even if he hadn't initiated a rotation, would have given him a look at the secondary defender enough to validate LGP for the correct charge call. L had to have been ballwatching on the dribbler to default to a block on this play.
C should have stepped down toward the basket with the drive. Not saying that would have been his call because the crash was on the secondary defender which we typically give to L to have first crack. The lack of urgency, engagement, and mobility of both as they just stood there, still and stable, didn't look good and contributed to the wrong call being made.
Just my $3.68.
Anybody disagree?

I do not know why the C did not have a call on this. And I do not think this is the L's call all the way. Yes they can have a call here, but this to me is the C's call. And other than philosophy of who has this call, the C should have a play that originated in his or her area.

Peace

The secondary defender comes out of the L's primary. We're giving firsr crack to the L all day on this.

Thanks for the input. Definitely PC foul. L and C both out of position, that said, originated in C's primary, collision is all but outside the paint. I see it as C's whistle.

Since the offense "beat" the primary defender so far outside and so far before the contact, C could have had a look / call on this.

True, but as secondary coverage in case the Lead fails to cover the play.

Did our opinions help shape or confirm yours?

He still sees it as the C's whistle though. That's a problem. The message on the new way to handle secondary defenders during drives to the basket isn't getting communicated. This is a training issue. I wonder what state he is in.

I was asking cause I wasn't sure he heard a thing we said.

Frankly, I also find it harder to judge LGP on a play going away from me, but that's another unrelated thought.

Oh, Mark. Sigh.

I get it, higher levels invented this definition and it hasn't made it into NFHS Rule 4 yet, nor will it so long as we don't have a restricted area in high school. But there is absolutely nothing....NOTHING....wrong with using the phrase as a descriptor of modern defensive strategy vis-à-vis the evolution of officiating mechanics.

Purism is the enemy of innovation.

Have you read the most recent NFHS Manual lately? Because the term is defined and used in that publication which the majority of states, including the ones you officiate in, go by.

I appreciate the insight and feedback Nevada.
I am the L, just stumbled across the video on youtube, game from last year. I was in no position to make the call, hence terrible miss. I definitely was expecting a whistle from C. Its in IL same as:

Did something happen to video? All I see is a white box. Videos in other threads work for me.

Thank you. I am so tired of this nonsense about secondary Defenders and if Naismith didn't write it then it doesn't exist. Geez.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

The Lead definitely should have pinched the paint. Have no problem with him making the call as the secondary Defender was in the paint.

The center official appears to be somebody who has more experience working 2 man than 3 man based on his positioning and failure to move.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

I've been ringing the bell on how to cover this play for years now.....and I always said how does a C officiate a dribble drive and know if a secondary defender out of the L's primary established LGP?

Then people point at the floor and say that the contact happened outside the lane. So what? The L is the official who watched that defender either establish or not establish LGP.

I'd expect, as a lead, to be able to ship this with a single whistle and not have to wait to make sure a C didn't make a call. If the C blows on it, it should be after the L has nothing.

I jokingly say "lead is king" in these situations, but I do think there's too much of an effort to give calls where the lead is best positioned to make a call to outside officials.

Thank you.

I said this about pinching the paint in post 4 and wondered if anyone else would come in and say the same thing.

Same with me. Must be my internet browser or something.

yes!

Sorry, I'm on a roll. :D

Some officials say, "well, what's the harm of a double whistle?"

Nothing if you don't think 2 officials having to look at each other, decide who's taking the call, THEN giving a preliminary signal doesn't make the crew look indecisive or confused.

If I have the only whistle, I can quickly confirm that and come right out with what I have. I've worked really hard to not lay on a second whistle on plays I'm supposed to give up to another official.

You mean like someone wrote in post #2? ;)

IMO, all three officials are in horrible position before the ball is passed and they all stand without moving a bit. Meanwhile, the ball and players are certainly moving. T has to get to 28ft, C has to be a FT line extended, and L must be in a closing position. This is important for all levels let alone the level being played in the video where you are not going to get much action outside the 3pt line. Need to be closer for credibility, especially on the play in the video. From their respective positions, I think C should have made the PC call. Yes, L gets dibs so-to-speak, however he is too far away. Furthermore, girl was beat immediately (jenkins mentioned), so much that the secondary defender should have been the person that C was watching. The primary defender was not involved. The big issue is the "concrete" Freddy mentioned. That "sets" it for a poorly officiated play with no credibility.

You wrote close-down position.

I wrote pinch the paint, which is another few steps into the lane, to the O in CARBONDALE on the court.

But, yeah, wide-angle shows a lack of 3-person experience, IMO. Mirroring the ball would've had the L in the closedown position this entire video clip.

First, it takes guts and courage to post video of yourself. You obviously desire to improve. If you are willing to take the information provided by several of the posters here, even though it could be harsh, you will get better.

There is naturally some sifting of information which must be done on a public forum such as this and you will get conflicting advice. You will need to select what is best for you and the area in which you work.

I happen to agree with Rich, BNR, and Multiple Sports (who posted in your other thread on this). We believe quite strongly in the new method of having the Lead make the decisions on secondary defenders (help-defenders). I've seen numerous video clips to prove why it is better. On the other hand, Rut and Bob Jenkins have proven themselves to be quality officials over the years too and present a different take.

I will tell you that I am the instructor for over 300 HS officials in CA and get most of my 3-person information from NCAA officials Tony Padilla and Mike Reed. You will see both of them in the NCAA tournament this coming week.

I agree with others on the general guideline of giving the L first crack at plays involving secondary defenders in the paint.

Also agree on the glaring need for movement from both the L and the C, and the T as well for that matter.

I think far too often we focus on a missed call without really examining why its missed. IMO this was a miss caused by the L not using the close down position and pinching the paint and the C not moving at all to maintain a look at the play.

L's call but the C could have had a whistle too. And at the very least, should have been in better position to see the play.