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-   -   How to and how hard to push for games (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102375-how-how-hard-push-games.html)

Hartsy Fri Mar 10, 2017 02:46pm

How to and how hard to push for games
 
After 14 seasons I seem to be in a slump. Given the various levels of experience and geography that contribute to this board, I thought this would be a good place to gather some comments about the process of working with assignors to get games, or get better games. It's probably a number of things working against me. I guess I am looking for some opinions about how to evaluate where I am and what to do about it.

The situation in a nutshell: the number of assignments and quality of the matchups I get for varsity games has not been improving. For about 6 seasons I seem to only be able to get one or 2 games per assignor, working with 4 or 5 assignors. All of them are happy to give me as many sub-varsity slots as I can manage. This is true whether I get assigned as part of a crew or on an individual basis. I have had partners who are getting 10 games from the assignor who gives me 1. I cover games at the last minute, keep my commitments, dont double book, stick around to watch other games and officials, and have never had an assignor call with a question or complaint about how I have handled a game.

So, what is limiting me from building a varsity schedule and having an opportunity to work post season? My ability? Politics? Not aggressively pursuing assignments? Not being seen enough? Is this just how it is sometimes?

packersowner Fri Mar 10, 2017 02:57pm

My advice, ask your assignor directly this question. A couple of years ago, my schedule seemed like a step back from previous years. I was upset. I sent an e-mail saying, "I feel like I have done something wrong." His response, "No, you are doing everything right, it was honest mistake and I forgot about you when I was scheduling." Over the course of the year, most of my JV Girls games turned into VG games, my JV Boys games went to VB games. Where he could, he improved my schedule.

It might be a little different scenario, but I think if you simply ask, "What do I need to do to be seen as an official that you will assign X Y Z games too." You will probably get a legitimate reason and response back.

JRutledge Fri Mar 10, 2017 03:52pm

Nothing wrong with asking where you stand, but be prepared for the answer.

Then do not argue or debate the answer. If you are said to not be as strong as other officials, that is not going to be changed by that conversation.

You also have to accept that we are what they think we are. If they do not think we are strong, assignors are not always going to tell you in detail unless they feel they can help. Because honestly, if your assignments are very good, that says something about what they think of you. If they are average or not the top games, then you are clearly not the top guy if you were available when they gave them out.

Peace

Nevadaref Fri Mar 10, 2017 04:12pm

It can't hurt to ask. If you don't like your current schedule, then it is worth the trouble to inquire. Otherwise, nothing is going to change.

As was noted above, you may not like the answer. So be prepared to accept it. You can then decide if you wish to continue working for that assignor or put your time elsewhere.

Raymond Fri Mar 10, 2017 04:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartsy (Post 1002048)
After 14 seasons I seem to be in a slump. Given the various levels of experience and geography that contribute to this board, I thought this would be a good place to gather some comments about the process of working with assignors to get games, or get better games. It's probably a number of things working against me. I guess I am looking for some opinions about how to evaluate where I am and what to do about it.

The situation in a nutshell: the number of assignments and quality of the matchups I get for varsity games has not been improving. For about 6 seasons I seem to only be able to get one or 2 games per assignor, working with 4 or 5 assignors. All of them are happy to give me as many sub-varsity slots as I can manage. This is true whether I get assigned as part of a crew or on an individual basis. I have had partners who are getting 10 games from the assignor who gives me 1. I cover games at the last minute, keep my commitments, dont double book, stick around to watch other games and officials, and have never had an assignor call with a question or complaint about how I have handled a game.

So, what is limiting me from building a varsity schedule and having an opportunity to work post season? My ability? Politics? Not aggressively pursuing assignments? Not being seen enough? Is this just how it is sometimes?

Not a direct answer to your question, but...

If you have any video of yourself working, get one of the more successful officials in your area (NCAA or NBA official if possible) to sit down with you for about 20 minutes to review your officiating and then give you some feedback. It might shed light on some things you need to work on.

BillyMac Fri Mar 10, 2017 05:32pm

Live Observation ...
 
After fourteen years, it's tough to call you a mentee, but nevertheless, get a mentor. Ask a really good official (great varsity schedule, conference tournaments, state tournaments) that you are friendly with for advice. Maybe he can observe you on one of his free nights?

Hartsy Fri Mar 10, 2017 09:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1002063)
After fourteen years, it's tough to call you a mentee, but nevertheless, get a mentor. Ask a really good official (great varsity schedule, conference tournaments, state tournaments) that you are friendly with for advice. Maybe he can observe you on one of his free nights?

All of the feedback I have had from fellow officials has been positive. From those I have worked with and those observing. I was even asked to do a small college JV game by someone who has seen me on the court. Surely there is room to improve and I know what I need to work on, and I would say I am able to handle games as well or better than those in my area who are getting 4 or 5 assignments to every one I get.

Hartsy Fri Mar 10, 2017 09:43pm

I'll see what I can do about getting a response from a couple of assignors. I was worried that may come across poorly and result in even fewer games. As described in previous posts it sounds iike a sound strategy.

crosscountry55 Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:39pm

From the guy who has had to work in six states and start over all the time:

1. Not sure if you started very young, but if you did, sometimes the mere appearance of youth (super-skinny, somewhat robotic, perhaps a pimple or two) can hurt. It might not be fair, but it is what it is. Working out and building some muscle mass helps with that.

2. Supply and demand of officials is a force multiplier. You may be in an area where there is a surplus of entrenched veterans. If you can move, great, but as this is not always an option, it may be something you have to live with.

3. Go to camp. Meet as many assignors at camp as you can, introduce yourself, invite them to watch you work. You didn't mention camp, so if you don't or rarely attend camp, this could be part of the problem.

4. Maybe stop accepting so many JV games. If you don't over-commit, you'll show that you're not just a warm body to fill those games. Sure, if your schedule the day before is still open and you want to be a last-minute sub, that's fine, but otherwise keep those dates open for varsity assignments and emergency fills.

5. My epiphany over the last few years: stop giving a hoot about the games you get, whether you get a playoff assignment, etc. It's kind of like the old adage that when you stop looking for love, that's when you find it. Same goes for your schedule: when you stop caring about it so much, it gets better. Make sure officiating basketball is still fun. If the politics and the assignors and the association are taking all the air out of your tires....then maybe it's time to do something else after 14 years.

6. Lastly, speaking of 14 years, to be brutally honest that's a long time in to be working a schedule that's anything other than all varsity (unless, you're a new guy in a new area). As some other posters have noted, you should just ask your assignors to be honest with you, but be prepared to accept what you hear and treat it constructively.

7. Ok, I lied. Do you happen to work in a 2-person varsity area? If so, that really inhibits lots of folks (not just you) from moving up and getting the varsity experience that helps identify and separate the better officials. 2-person doesn't just suck because it makes for crappier basketball. Ultimately it also makes for a stagnant pool of crappier officials.

Mregor Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:01am

Quit doing the JV games. You might be known as a "JV Ref".

Camron Rust Sat Mar 11, 2017 01:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mregor (Post 1002086)
Quit doing the JV games. You might be known as a "JV Ref".

If you start doing that here, you're not going to get the varsity games.

Rich Sat Mar 11, 2017 01:31pm

How to and how hard to push for games
 
Depends on the geography.

Here, JV games are assigned by schools. V games are mostly assigned by league commissioners.

Here, it's valid advice I've given others. Being known as a JV ref can hinder advancement, IMO.

Multiple Sports Sat Mar 11, 2017 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1002051)
Nothing wrong with asking where you stand, but be prepared for the answer.

Then do not argue or debate the answer. If you are said to not be as strong as other officials, that is not going to be changed by that conversation.

You also have to accept that we are what they think we are. If they do not think we are strong, assignors are not always going to tell you in detail unless they feel they can help. Because honestly, if your assignments are very good, that says something about what they think of you. If they are average or not the top games, then you are clearly not the top guy if you were available when they gave them out.

Peace

Hartsy -

I currently assign about 7,500 hs and youth softball and baseball games during the summer. Rut is 1000% correct about being prepared for the answer. Arguing will not do you any favors.

You said you work with 5 different assigners. Here is a question for you. Whom do you take first ???? IMO too many officials at the high school level will answer this question by saying I take first whoever gets me first. Again, IMO that is the wrong answer. Be honest and let all your assigners know where they stand. Every assigner wants HIS guys...by you taking whoever gets that date first, you become a secondary to most of your assigners. I'm not saying put all your eggs in one basket but try to be honest with them.

The guys who work college basketball on here will tell you that that is what they do. My good friend BNR and I work in two leagues together and both of those guys know where each of us stand. This honesty will reward you in the long run. If you take an assigner 5th out of 5 that is OK as well...just realize regardless of your ability you can't take a guy last and expect to work his post season.

Hope this helps......

Hartsy Tue Mar 14, 2017 09:08am

Summary response from one assignor: My crew rating is in the bottom half of the crews he uses. He uses the ratings as the basis for the number and (likely) significance of the games. The ratings are from COACHES only. Says being seen at camps by coaches is best way to get ratings up. There was nothing mentioned other than this.

I guess this means that I need to get better, or make it look like I am getting better. After 14 seasons, I know I can improve, but I am probably near my potential.

JRutledge Tue Mar 14, 2017 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports (Post 1002097)
Hartsy -

I currently assign about 7,500 hs and youth softball and baseball games during the summer. Rut is 1000% correct about being prepared for the answer. Arguing will not do you any favors.

You said you work with 5 different assigners. Here is a question for you. Whom do you take first ???? IMO too many officials at the high school level will answer this question by saying I take first whoever gets me first. Again, IMO that is the wrong answer. Be honest and let all your assigners know where they stand. Every assigner wants HIS guys...by you taking whoever gets that date first, you become a secondary to most of your assigners. I'm not saying put all your eggs in one basket but try to be honest with them.

I actually work for more than 5 as we are apart of a consortium in the Chicago area that has about 15 different assignors that are members with Arbiter. We can get games from any of them theoretically.

Now that being said, whomever starts giving games. We get games usually about a year in advance. For example some assignors start giving games around early November for the following season. Most assignors start with the Fridays, which are generally conference games or dates schools know they will have scheduled. The non-conference games are usually coming out later, sometimes out in the summer before the coming season, those trickle out until the season in some cases. So whomever asks for my Fridays, that is where I start. Then they might ask for certain tournaments or shootouts, which might not be assigned by a conference assignor at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports (Post 1002097)
The guys who work college basketball on here will tell you that that is what they do. My good friend BNR and I work in two leagues together and both of those guys know where each of us stand. This honesty will reward you in the long run. If you take an assigner 5th out of 5 that is OK as well...just realize regardless of your ability you can't take a guy last and expect to work his post season.

Hope this helps......

I also work college and I do not work and those are mostly Saturday dates initially. So I always block off my Saturdays to high school assignors until most of the college games come out. I always have a Saturday or two that is open or an opportunity to work a later game on Saturday after a college game if it is close enough. Also college assignors expect you to work their college game if you are on staff. So that might mean we have to give back a game on a weekday game if assigned.

Peace

bob jenkins Tue Mar 14, 2017 09:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartsy (Post 1002368)
Summary response from one assignor: My crew rating is in the bottom half of the crews he uses.

Maybe you need a different crew.

Rich Tue Mar 14, 2017 09:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartsy (Post 1002368)
Summary response from one assignor: My crew rating is in the bottom half of the crews he uses. He uses the ratings as the basis for the number and (likely) significance of the games. The ratings are from COACHES only. Says being seen at camps by coaches is best way to get ratings up. There was nothing mentioned other than this.

I guess this means that I need to get better, or make it look like I am getting better. After 14 seasons, I know I can improve, but I am probably near my potential.

I assign for 24 schools. I don't even look at coach ratings, even though there are available to me. I find them unreliable as a measure of quality.

BillyMac Tue Mar 14, 2017 01:01pm

When In Rome ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1002369)
We get games usually about a year in advance.

Wow. Since our assigner started using Arbiter several years ago, we are lucky to get assignments two, to three, weeks in advance. We can often see "pending assignments" (light blue on "blocks" page) several weeks out, but they don't get to be "assigned games" until just a few weeks before the actual assignment date. Our assigner takes a lot of time matching up the best officials with the best games, and things change, especially with teams as the season progresses. Teams that are supposed to be good at the beginning of the season often don't pan out, and vice versa.

Back in the olden days of getting our assignments through the United States Postal Service, we would get all of our season assignments at the beginning of the season, with changes (through land line phones) mainly caused by bad weather, illness, and injuries.

BillyMac Tue Mar 14, 2017 01:07pm

Crews ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1002370)
Maybe you need a different crew.

Until I joined the Forum, I had never heard of this "crew" concept, it just doesn't happen here in Connecticut (I worked with over thirty different partners this past season). I could see advantages and disadvantages with this concept, but never considered that a crew could drag a talented individual official down the toilet.

BillyMac Tue Mar 14, 2017 01:14pm

Dumb Luck ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1002371)
... coach ratings ... I find them unreliable as a measure of quality.

Coaches ratings (we don't do coaches ratings) are not used by our assigner for regular season, and conference/league post season, assignment purposes, instead he uses peer ratings, and input from an observation team.

Coaches votes are used for assigning state tournament games. With few exceptions, I've found that coaches do an excellent job of selecting our best officials to work state tournament games. As I said, there are a few exceptions every year, a nondeserving name, or two, that gets on the tournament list, and a deserving name, or two, that doesn't get on tournament list (out of the sixty local guys (and gals) that make the boys/girls tournament list from our local board).

JRutledge Tue Mar 14, 2017 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1002389)
Wow. Since our assigner started using Arbiter several years ago, we are lucky to get assignments two, to three, weeks in advance. We can often see "pending assignments" (light blue on "blocks" page) several weeks out, but they don't get to be "assigned games" until just a few weeks before the actual assignment date. Our assigner takes a lot of time matching up the best officials with the best games, and things change, especially with teams as the season progresses. Teams that are supposed to be good at the beginning of the season often don't pan out, and vice versa.

Back in the olden days of getting our assignments through the United States Postal Service, we would get all of our assignments at the beginning of the season, with changes (through land line phones) mainly caused by bad weather.

Conference schedules are pretty much a rotating schedule and they know the conference games pretty much off the bat. The non-conference can change and so does some tournaments, which are only given to certain individuals anyway. And many conferences you know who is going to be good or not so good. And the rivalries never really change.

And even back in the days, the games given in mail were still given a year or more in advance. The contracts would come a few months before the season.

Peace

Rich Tue Mar 14, 2017 01:22pm

I already have games in February 2019. If I'm alive.

I will assign 18-19 this summer.

BillyMac Tue Mar 14, 2017 01:31pm

Rivalry ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1002395)
And the rivalries never really change.

Amen.

Raymond Tue Mar 14, 2017 02:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1002395)
Conference schedules are pretty much a rotating schedule and they know the conference games pretty much off the bat. The non-conference can change and so does some tournaments, which are only given to certain individuals anyway. And many conferences you know who is going to be good or not so good. And the rivalries never really change.

And even back in the days, the games given in mail were still given a year or more in advance. The contracts would come a few months before the season.

Peace

We don't even register with our state board (and consequentially, officially with our associations) until July of every year, so it's impossible to assign games prior to that, of which I am glad. With my college games rolling in from August through November, there is no way I can provide availability to my HS assignors until November.

BillyMac Tue Mar 14, 2017 03:33pm

Vernal Equinox ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 1002406)
We don't even register with our state board (and consequentially, official with our associations) until July of every year,

Same here, although it might be in late spring, or early summer. Our annual dues are always due March 1, so it can't be earlier than that.

LRZ Tue Mar 14, 2017 03:43pm

Hartsy, how does that work, being assigned to one crew? Just one crew (of two or three) all season, or are you assigned to several steady, regular crews? What happens if one member of the crew is not available for an offered assignment?

If your assigners use Arbiter, can you block partners?

Rich Tue Mar 14, 2017 03:51pm

I work 70% of my games with the same two officials. Worked 5 postseason games together.

I also try to get as many as I can assigned as an individual. I think its useful to work with different people when I can, but a lot of assigners want to make 1 assignment, not 3.

Camron Rust Tue Mar 14, 2017 03:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1002396)
I already have games in February 2019. If I'm alive.

I will assign 18-19 this summer.

I find it sad that places exist where HS sports officials have to be scheduled 2 years out. This is HS sports, after all.

As long as the schools know their games, I guess that is a natural consequence of having many competing assignors....they all want to get their games covered with the good officials before they're gone.

Here, the schools don't have a clue which dates they'll be playing at home until the summer before the season. They know they'll be playing league games on certain day but they don't know the opponent or whether they'll be home or away on those dates.

Rich Tue Mar 14, 2017 03:52pm

Well, I create my league's schedule. So there's that. :)

Camron Rust Tue Mar 14, 2017 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1002422)
Well, I create my league's schedule. So there's that. :)

If you have control of that too, then it makes it easy.

Rich Tue Mar 14, 2017 04:01pm

How to and how hard to push for games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1002423)
If you have control of that too, then it makes it easy.



My role goes well beyond assigning officials. Sometimes that's good. Other times...

I haven't even made the 18-19 schedules yet. I'd love to slide my assigning back to be the summer before the season, but as others have said, I'd face limited availability of a lot of people I want to hire.

JRutledge Tue Mar 14, 2017 04:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 1002406)
We don't even register with our state board (and consequentially, official with our associations) until July of every year, so it's impossible to assign games prior to that, of which I am glad. With my college games rolling in from August through November, there is no way I can provide availability to my HS assignors until November.

If you mean have a license, we do not renew our licenses until May to July. It only matters when the game is played if we have a license.

Also unless you are doing D1 and flying out all, then having a Friday game in January is not much that is going to be an issue around here. And if someone like you got those kind of games, they are probably not working much high school. We have many guys around here that do not work high school anymore after they have a certain level of college schedule. Not a big deal as that is what many of them want to do anyway.

Peace

crosscountry55 Tue Mar 14, 2017 04:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1002396)
I already have games in February 2019. If I'm alive.

I will assign 18-19 this summer.

With that in mind, I consider myself very fortunate that Rich saved a few 17-18 games for a nomad like me.

You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

Rich Tue Mar 14, 2017 04:28pm

I held back 6 schools, both boys and girls.

I didn't assign those, although I sent the contracts. You know who to thank. :)

crosscountry55 Tue Mar 14, 2017 08:49pm

Ok, well, then if you're Charlie Brown, the other guy is a gentleman and a scholar.

You're both class acts in my book.

Am I kissing up? Yes. Shamelessly. :D

Hartsy Mon Mar 20, 2017 07:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1002413)
Hartsy, how does that work, being assigned to one crew? Just one crew (of two or three) all season, or are you assigned to several steady, regular crews? What happens if one member of the crew is not available for an offered assignment?

If your assigners use Arbiter, can you block partners?

One of my assignors uses the crew concept for varsity games. He asks each crew to assign a crew chief to handle all communications with him. Crew chief submits names of members. Assignor then looks at crews available dates, the coaches ratings for those crew members, and the predicted 'significance' of games open to that crew. This significance factor is based rivalries and predictions as to the impact the game could have on league schedules. The higher rated crews get the more significant games. Sometimes we get games where 1 of 3 members has a block. Crew gets to choose a replacement or leave it up to assignor. Some assignors in my area will use a crew for some of their games and mix and match the rest.


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