Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1001221)

OK, but if the ball was contacted first and the follow through involved some arm contact, in my world that is not a foul. That is expected on some level. And if there is some torso contact, then so be it as well. If he used all that arm contact and body contact to get the block, different story.

Peace

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1001222)

DJ had a good look and passed. That's good enough for me.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1001223)

Contacting the ball first, in and of itself, gives one the right to do......nothing. By watching this video, it is not a certainty that there was any contact with the ball. (I think there was some) But what is certain is that after the ball contact, there was substantial contact with both the arm and the body which stopped any chance he had of making the shot.

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1001225)

Whether the ball is contacted first means a lot at this level. You saying otherwise doesn't change that. It's pretty clear when I watch NCAA D1 games.

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1001225)

Whether the ball is contacted first means a lot at this level. You saying otherwise doesn't change that. It's pretty clear when I watch NCAA D1 games.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1001229)

But this is a philosophy, and not a rule, yes?

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1001232)

That is the case here in high school games. That is the case in small college games. That is the case if you work for the right position.







Well what rule says otherwise?



I can look at the incidental contact rule and clearly judge that the block did not prevent the shooter from doing normal movements.



Peace

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1001236)

It's the case here in good HS hoops too. I only referenced NCAAM in the post cause that's the level the video is from.

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1001236)

If a HS player gets ball first it makes a lot incidental.....as long as the defender doesn't annihilate the airborne shooter in the process.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1001240)

Oh I know. But that was for the benefit of those that try to act like high school is some pure and different level. I work for an assignor that assigns me both high school and college games. He is the head clinician in the state and told us flat out what we are to do on a blocked shot attempt. He told us "Assume they will block the shot" in our pre-weekend meeting. That was said with the IHSA Administrator in that meeting. That is all I needed to hear.







I do not totally disagree, but a lot of times the contact with the ball is going to knock a player off balance and any contact that took place is not going to be the reason the player fell, the taking your momentum out of the air while blocking the ball will. Just like someone that tries to dunk and hits the rim instead.



Peace

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1001236)

If a HS player gets ball first it makes a lot incidental.....as long as the defender doesn't annihilate the airborne shooter in the process.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1001242)

Agreed, if he gets ball first. If he cleanly swats the ball into the wall followed by minimal contact of any kind, nobody wants a foul there, except the team taking the shot. But if the defender grazes the ball with a fingertip and then follow through with contact that draws blood, what do you have then? Obviously the OP is somewhere in between. To me, with the benefit of the replay, this meets the definition of a foul.

As far as rule vs. philosophy, I'm just saying there is no provision which says:

If the defender contacts the ball first, any subsequent contact shall be ruled incidental.

I call it the roughing the kicker philosophy.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1001245)

Well if you make contact with the ball in normal action in blocking a kick you do not call any foul for RTK anyway.

Peace

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1001246)

That was the point. But that is the rule in football, isn't it?
There is no such rule in basketball.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1001247)

And there is no such rule that says all contact is a foul. Contact can be severe and not be a foul.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 1001248)

Contact can be severe and not be a foul. Conversely, contact can be minimal and be a foul, and touching the ball is coincidental to both.