Ball off Face!
 

The lead official looks really engaged. Is he even counting?

No he is not. And the coach is yelling at the wrong official as well.

Peace

That's an awful quick T when, IMO, the coach had a pretty valid point.

Do you have any idea what the coach said?

No I don't, and perhaps it contained some magic words, but after such a huge miss by his partner, I certainly would have a little longer leash even for some of the magic words.

Look like the lead got the out of bounds call correct.

Agreed.

But do you really think that bouncing the ball off of the defender's face should have been a no-call?

That assumes that the official giving the T even saw the play. It is very possible he is looking at the other 8 players on the floor or some other match-up that he would not have seen this play. So I do not blame him for this situation at all.

Peace

If the Trail has more than a peripheral look at that play then he's not doing his job officiating the rest of the court. Potentially missing something isn't carte blanche for the HC to say whatever he wants.

So what would the proper call be here?

Illegal use of opponent's face. Unsporting Technical on thrower.

I'd like to see a technical foul on A1 for an "unsporting foul". If this is intentional, which it clearly looks to be, its a no brainier tech.

2 shots and the ball for Red (NFHS).

I agree that he has other primary responsibilities, but if you look at the first angle, it appears that this is a 2 man crew. The other 6 of the other 8 players are all below the free throw line, and it even appears that the trail is looking through the court and would have had some view of what just occurred.

Again, based on the first angle show, I think the trail can do his job while still having a decent look at what happened.

I'm not saying the coach can do/say whatever he wants, but I think you have to give him a little leeway given the situation. Again, we don't know what was said exactly. Maybe there were some magic word expressed. I just think it was a quick trigger given the play.

It appears to me as if the L was looking right at the two players involved. My conjecture is that it caught him off-guard and he just didn't react. But he might have bought himself some time if, realizing that something troublesome had occurred, he went to his partner to talk it over briefly. One of those "partner, just nod your head as I'm talking to you" conversations.

Even if that is the case, it is still not something the Trail should be eyeballing that hard. He might have seen the ball contact the player, but did not see how measured the thrower was on hitting the opponent. So having him come in and making a call is kind of a stretch. The official standing right there administering the throw-in is really responsible for this call here.

Peace

I am not advocating for the Trail to come in and make a call here. I'm just saying that if the trail caught any glimpse of what happened, and he knows his partner jacked this up, that he give the coach a little chance to speak his mind. I'm not saying that "anything goes" when the coach starts ranting, but there are times when something happens that gets blatantly missed, and if that's the case, within reasonable limits, let the coach say his piece, and then move on.

He might have been surprised by what happened or did not know the entire story. And that does not give the coach the right to do whatever after that point of view. And if anything you are yelling at me when it was not my call or play to rule on. Just the fact he is yelling at me might be part of the reason he gets a T. If he does not know who to yell at, then that is not my problem. But he does not get a pass because he is saying something to me in a disrespectful way. Usually I give coaches a chance to change course, but if he doesn't, then so be it and get a T like any other time.

Peace

I have a flagrant foul here. I can see instances where a kid falling out of bounds may "hit" an opponents face and it be a no call, however this is completely unnecessary and white is done in my game.

Again, I'm not saying the coach gets a free pass. I just felt that in this situation, given what had just happened, it was an awfully quick trigger. You could tell the coach was upset, but he didn't seem to be yelling, or belligerent. I just think that given the situation, if the official that called the T had any idea of what had just happened, the coach deserved a little leeway.

Heck, since I wasn't there to hear exactly what was said, it's hard to say that I wouldn't have given him a T as well.

I have said this before and I will say this again.

"When you roll the dice, you might just crap out." Well the coach crapped out and might have gotten a pass with a different official or situation. And unless you really know what was said, then we are speculating if things were to be different.

Peace

My thoughts on this (which is definitely 2 man as the trail is opposite and mirroring the chop clock):

This is not as obvious call for the lead in real time. In 2 man especially, the focus is on the on-ball defender and thrower but you also have to watch other players nearby.

There is a offensive player making a cut around the free throw line who could theoretically be the intended target. Unless you are focused completely on the thrower (as we are when we watch the video), it would be hard to know whether this was intentional or accidental.

After watching the video, I'm 98% sure that the player threw the ball at the defender and I'd be confident to call an unsporting T. As the lead in 2-man, I'd probably be closer to 50/50 in the moment

If this happened to me, I would call the out of bounds and then go immediately to my partner to see whether or not he had an opinion e.g. "Ball hit the defender square in the face -- did you see anything to suggest that this the thrower did this intentionally?" or "Ball hit the defender square in the face -- I believe it was intentional by the thrower but wanted to check to see if you saw it differently before I issue a T".

Even if we don't call a T we show both coaches and the players that we are on notice for any more shenanigans.

Sure ... but also, from that angle, he has no reason to believe this was anything other than a normal throw in that happened to hit the defender (albeit in the face). He can't imagine intent from there, he is very unlikely to see anything tech-worthy from there, especially in the light of his partner, on the spot, not calling one.

+1

I could easily go with a flagrant on this one.

I think it's either a technical foul for negligence (there is a cutter coming through at that moment, and the grassy knoll angle makes it impossible to tell if the thrower was staring at the defender or at the cutter), or a flagrant foul for intentionally throwing at the opponent's face.

Oh, and a flop.

This.

I'm not generally one to think a coach gets extra leeway because a call is missed. I rarely know a call is missed, and even when one was missed and can't be fixed, the coach still needs to act like an adult.

Maybe it's worth the T for the coach to make his point (his player could have been hurt by this), I could see that in this case if he thought it was intentional. That doesn't mean he gets to yell at me, though, without consequence.

That's Using Your Head ...
 

Slightly of topic, one of our guys was accidentally hit in the head with a pass that went awry, got a concussion, and missed two weeks of games.

We sometimes forget that under certain circumstances, a thrown basketball can cause a serious injury.

We can't tell who was looking at what. When I'm that close to the thrower I do have an eye there. Can't really say what all these guys looking at. None may have looked... Can't say what Coach said to zebra. If I was coach and saw the entire play I'd probably get tossed.

On film, This was flagrant and the kid should be tossed. For more than a game. He looks at kids head and throws it hard right at it. Walks off for ball with no remorse. Its a battery.

Rather striking, isn't it? He's gone.

But if the trail isn't looking there, how will he call a five second violation??

On a serious note, I have a flagrant foul for this action. As someone else mentioned, not every thrown ball that hits an opposing player is the same.

But, in this case, it is clear the player seeks out the face of his opponent and throws the ball directly and forcefully. It is extreme and violent in nature.

It is also relevant that this throw occurs at about a 4 count, which falls more on the intentional act column. And it hasn't been said yet, but we only have a problem with this because it was a face shot, correct? If he bounces this off the guys knee or hits him in the junk do we just have an out of bounds situation?

No. I was being facetious.

I'm not one for overreacting on these kinds of things, but I can't see how anything but a flagrant technical fits the bill here.

You aren't going to get that level of awareness or even an appropriate reaction from the L, IMO. Makes me wonder if there was anything else during another part of this game that wasn't dealt with that led to this.

Yes on the leg, etc. (I won't even address the junk -- if he's trying to bounce it out of bounds, that's a poor choice of targets).

There's no specific rule that forbids the player from bouncing it off another player. In 99.9% of these situations, that's considered "smart basketball."

This is the 0.1% play.

I had a similar situation that has helped me prepare for this conduct.

It was a GV game, and an end-line throw-in similar to the situation in this thread video.

In my case, when I got to a 4 count, the in-bounder threw the ball very hard at the upper torso of the defender but missed, and the ball went up court and out of bounds.

It caught me somewhat off-guard, and I talked to the player at that moment.
I later considered what I would do in the future if the ball had hit the opponent in the upper torso (vs the head, or the legs).

For this video, I have a flagrant technical, no hesitation.

I had a guy I knew here who tossed a kid for throwing a bounce pass for an inbounds at a guys junk. The state didnt back up the ejection and let the kid play. If a guys hands are in the air and I powerfully bounce into his junk isnt that more than a T? Especially if the two had been jawing at eachother during the game.

Directly, perhaps. Off of a bounce pass, I doubt it.

Would this be a technical foul for unsporting behavior? Or a live-ball intentional/flagrant foul? Is the ball contact the same as a player making contact?

You are suggesting that it is perfectly OK to intentionally throw a ball very hard directly at an opponent. Perhaps you meant lightly deflecting off an opponent.

I do not agree with the strategy as far as rules are concerned. See my tag line. Not looking for a debate and won't respond any more to this thread. Clearly any time it occurs it is an unsporting act. Again, see my tag line.

If a player throws it off a leg intentionally, it's not going to be anything but a ball hitting a defender's leg.

I have not called an unsporting technical on such a play in 30 years. The play in this thread is the elephant in the room, the flagrant technical. I've seen inbounders throw balls off defenders at least a few times a month and never has it once crossed my mind to do anything other than to call the out of bounds violation.

I'm lost as to what your tag line has to do with this conversation. :confused:

This is a 2 man crew. I had the team in white last year in the playoffs. In my opinion there's no way the lead doesn't get this. To me it's an unsporting flagrant act. Red team takes one in the face and their coach gets a T, not the best outcome.

Bucky, throwing ball hard off opponent while going OB or to avoid 5 count has been in game and acceptable forever. If it goes in face or privates that's a problem. If somebody winds up on the floor for no reason and wings it at somebody another decision has to be made.

I know you aren't looking for debate. Being unwilling to defend your position is a $5 fine...:rolleyes:

Case Book 10.4.6 mentions some of the thought-process elements that the covering official can use when such an action occurs. The force with which the pass is made is not mentioned. Surely, that can be an element in the judgment of the official.
Sometimes, you just have to officiate the game . . .
That's why we get the big bucks . . .
(and a few other cliches I won't mention . . .)