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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 15, 2017, 10:10pm
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On a serious note, I have a flagrant foul for this action. As someone else mentioned, not every thrown ball that hits an opposing player is the same.

But, in this case, it is clear the player seeks out the face of his opponent and throws the ball directly and forcefully. It is extreme and violent in nature.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:00pm
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It is also relevant that this throw occurs at about a 4 count, which falls more on the intentional act column. And it hasn't been said yet, but we only have a problem with this because it was a face shot, correct? If he bounces this off the guys knee or hits him in the junk do we just have an out of bounds situation?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:03pm
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Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes View Post
Agreed.

But do you really think that bouncing the ball off of the defender's face should have been a no-call?
No. I was being facetious.

I'm not one for overreacting on these kinds of things, but I can't see how anything but a flagrant technical fits the bill here.

You aren't going to get that level of awareness or even an appropriate reaction from the L, IMO. Makes me wonder if there was anything else during another part of this game that wasn't dealt with that led to this.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:04pm
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
It is also relevant that this throw occurs at about a 4 count, which falls more on the intentional act column. And it hasn't been said yet, but we only have a problem with this because it was a face shot, correct? If he bounces this off the guys knee or hits him in the junk do we just have an out of bounds situation?
Yes on the leg, etc. (I won't even address the junk -- if he's trying to bounce it out of bounds, that's a poor choice of targets).

There's no specific rule that forbids the player from bouncing it off another player. In 99.9% of these situations, that's considered "smart basketball."

This is the 0.1% play.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:17pm
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I had a similar situation that has helped me prepare for this conduct.

It was a GV game, and an end-line throw-in similar to the situation in this thread video.

In my case, when I got to a 4 count, the in-bounder threw the ball very hard at the upper torso of the defender but missed, and the ball went up court and out of bounds.

It caught me somewhat off-guard, and I talked to the player at that moment.
I later considered what I would do in the future if the ball had hit the opponent in the upper torso (vs the head, or the legs).

For this video, I have a flagrant technical, no hesitation.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2017, 04:23pm
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
It is also relevant that this throw occurs at about a 4 count, which falls more on the intentional act column. And it hasn't been said yet, but we only have a problem with this because it was a face shot, correct? If he bounces this off the guys knee or hits him in the junk do we just have an out of bounds situation?
I had a guy I knew here who tossed a kid for throwing a bounce pass for an inbounds at a guys junk. The state didnt back up the ejection and let the kid play. If a guys hands are in the air and I powerfully bounce into his junk isnt that more than a T? Especially if the two had been jawing at eachother during the game.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2017, 06:15pm
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I had a guy I knew here who tossed a kid for throwing a bounce pass for an inbounds at a guys junk. The state didnt back up the ejection and let the kid play. If a guys hands are in the air and I powerfully bounce into his junk isnt that more than a T? Especially if the two had been jawing at eachother during the game.

Directly, perhaps. Off of a bounce pass, I doubt it.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2017, 10:39pm
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Would this be a technical foul for unsporting behavior? Or a live-ball intentional/flagrant foul? Is the ball contact the same as a player making contact?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 12:19am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
There's no specific rule that forbids the player from bouncing it off another player.
You are suggesting that it is perfectly OK to intentionally throw a ball very hard directly at an opponent. Perhaps you meant lightly deflecting off an opponent.

I do not agree with the strategy as far as rules are concerned. See my tag line. Not looking for a debate and won't respond any more to this thread. Clearly any time it occurs it is an unsporting act. Again, see my tag line.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 12:40am
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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
You are suggesting that it is perfectly OK to intentionally throw a ball very hard directly at an opponent. Perhaps you meant lightly deflecting off an opponent.

I do not agree with the strategy as far as rules are concerned. See my tag line. Not looking for a debate and won't respond any more to this thread. Clearly any time it occurs it is an unsporting act. Again, see my tag line.
If a player throws it off a leg intentionally, it's not going to be anything but a ball hitting a defender's leg.

I have not called an unsporting technical on such a play in 30 years. The play in this thread is the elephant in the room, the flagrant technical. I've seen inbounders throw balls off defenders at least a few times a month and never has it once crossed my mind to do anything other than to call the out of bounds violation.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
You are suggesting that it is perfectly OK to intentionally throw a ball very hard directly at an opponent. Perhaps you meant lightly deflecting off an opponent.

I do not agree with the strategy as far as rules are concerned. See my tag line. Not looking for a debate and won't respond any more to this thread. Clearly any time it occurs it is an unsporting act. Again, see my tag line.
I'm lost as to what your tag line has to do with this conversation.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:13am
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This is a 2 man crew. I had the team in white last year in the playoffs. In my opinion there's no way the lead doesn't get this. To me it's an unsporting flagrant act. Red team takes one in the face and their coach gets a T, not the best outcome.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 04:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
You are suggesting that it is perfectly OK to intentionally throw a ball very hard directly at an opponent. Perhaps you meant lightly deflecting off an opponent.

I do not agree with the strategy as far as rules are concerned. See my tag line. Not looking for a debate and won't respond any more to this thread. Clearly any time it occurs it is an unsporting act. Again, see my tag line.
Bucky, throwing ball hard off opponent while going OB or to avoid 5 count has been in game and acceptable forever. If it goes in face or privates that's a problem. If somebody winds up on the floor for no reason and wings it at somebody another decision has to be made.

I know you aren't looking for debate. Being unwilling to defend your position is a $5 fine...
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2017, 10:46am
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Case Book 10.4.6 mentions some of the thought-process elements that the covering official can use when such an action occurs. The force with which the pass is made is not mentioned. Surely, that can be an element in the judgment of the official.
Sometimes, you just have to officiate the game . . .
That's why we get the big bucks . . .
(and a few other cliches I won't mention . . .)
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