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-   -   IW - Time out by time not in control (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102253-iw-time-out-time-not-control.html)

wyo96 Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:41pm

IW - Time out by time not in control
 
Same coach as running out of bounds question. This one has a steak dinner riding on it. 2 man crew, JV Boys.

Team A has the ball. Coach B yells time out and the "T" right in front of the bench has a brain fart and blows whistle to grant time out. ( I am sure most of us have done that sometime in our past)

We know right away we have an IW. Now that the ball is dead, we confirm with Coach B that he still wants the time out and we grant it. Coach A is adamant that we have to call a T on Coach B for calling a time out without the ball.

I explain it is an officials mistake and an IW. The penalty for calling an excessive time out is a T. He says he has been teched twice for calling a time out without the ball. In fact he is so confident of the rule he told me he would buy me a steak dinner if he was wrong.

Would any of you call a T for the time out? The only case I could think of was if you believed Coach B was being deceitful and tiring to show you up.

Rich Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyo96 (Post 1000082)
Same coach as running out of bounds question. This one has a steak dinner riding on it. 2 man crew, JV Boys.

Team A has the ball. Coach B yells time out and the "T" right in front of the bench has a brain fart and blows whistle to grant time out. ( I am sure most of us have done that sometime in our past)

We know right away we have an IW. Now that the ball is dead, we confirm with Coach B that he still wants the time out and we grant it. Coach A is adamant that we have to call a T on Coach B for calling a time out without the ball.

I explain it is an officials mistake and an IW. The penalty for calling an excessive time out is a T. He says he has been teched twice for calling a time out without the ball. In fact he is so confident of the rule he told me he would buy me a steak dinner if he was wrong.

Would any of you call a T for the time out? The only case I could think of was if you believed Coach B was being deceitful and tiring to show you up.

If you called a technical foul, what rules support would you have for it?

The IW made the ball dead. Either coach can request a timeout during a dead ball. Grant the timeout. Eat poop from Coach A. Put it in play.

BigT Mon Feb 13, 2017 01:06pm

Enjoy your steak!

LRZ Mon Feb 13, 2017 01:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1000085)
If you called a technical foul, what rules support would you have for it?

The IW made the ball dead. Either coach can request a timeout during a dead ball. Grant the timeout. Eat poop from Coach A. Put it in play.

"Eat poop"? No, eat filet mignon. And be sure to tell that coach how you like your steak.

Sounds like a coach I had several weeks ago, who approached me during a stoppage to say, "I know you think you know the rule, but...." "Stop right there, coach."

wyo96 Mon Feb 13, 2017 01:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1000085)
If you called a technical foul, what rules support would you have for it?

IMO the only rules support would be 10-5-1b: "Attempting to influence an officials decision".

There would have to be history and an extreme situation for me to use this to call a "T", but I think the rule could support a "T".

Adam Mon Feb 13, 2017 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyo96 (Post 1000091)
IMO the only rules support would be 10-5-1b: "Attempting to influence an officials decision".

There would have to be history and an extreme situation for me to use this to call a "T", but I think the rule could support a "T".

If you have to bend and mold the rule that much to justify a T for a situation that happens on a regular basis: don't.

If anyone was trying to influence your decision, it was the coach trying to get you to call a technical foul.

BigT Mon Feb 13, 2017 01:41pm

If I am a little slow I simply look at who is taking the time out request.. check the bench color and check back who has the actually ball. If it doesn't match I ignore the coach. Or say wait until you have the ball coach. If he is jumping up and down making a scene and the other team is not attempting to score you could whack him and tell him he can talk to his kids while we shoot the T's...

LOL

wyo96 Mon Feb 13, 2017 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 1000093)
If you have to bend and mold the rule that much to justify a T for a situation that happens on a regular basis: don't.

If anyone was trying to influence your decision, it was the coach trying to get you to call a technical foul.

I agree.

The coach said he had been "T"ed twice and this is the only rule I could find that might support the other officials calling a "T" on him.

I know I never would, eat crow and move on.

JRutledge Mon Feb 13, 2017 02:00pm

I do not believe the coach. I bet he got T'd for other stuff than this situation. He probably was being a jerk while yelling for a timeout like coaches tend to be in those situations. He probably was told that he could not call for a timeout in that situation and overreacted to that response. I do not believe coaches half the darn time when they say anything in the first place.

Peace

BigT Mon Feb 13, 2017 02:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1000099)
I do not believe the coach. I bet he got T'd for other stuff than this situation. He probably was being a jerk while yelling for a timeout like coaches tend to be in those situations. He probably was told that he could not call for a timeout in that situation and overreacted to that response. I do not believe coaches half the darn time when they say anything in the first place.

Peace

Half? should be down around 10% or less...

crosscountry55 Mon Feb 13, 2017 04:03pm

While we wait for BillyMac to post the case play...
 
Agree, enjoy your steak. Under NFHS rules, a timeout once granted (even if done so erroneously) shall be honored. Opposing coach won't be happy, and he'll have a beef (no pun intended), but it's an official's error and this is the prescribed way to move on.

At least one (both?) of the NCAA rule sets define this as an inadvertent whistle situation. No TO, give the ball back to the team in control or go POI if no team control. No talk of Ts in this situation, either. I prefer the NCAA interpretation and wish NFHS would go this route, but of course I administer under the applicable rule set de jour.

Afterthought: To clarify, if you thought the coach was calling TO but then you determine he clearly wasn't ("Five Out!"...."Time for a Rout!"), then it's just an IW and you don't need to force the coach to take a TO he wasn't requesting.

frezer11 Mon Feb 13, 2017 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1000099)
I do not believe the coach. I bet he got T'd for other stuff than this situation. He probably was being a jerk while yelling for a timeout like coaches tend to be in those situations. He probably was told that he could not call for a timeout in that situation and overreacted to that response. I do not believe coaches half the darn time when they say anything in the first place.

Peace

This is what I was thinking too. He probably earned two T's and found a way to blame them on some timeout situation. I've given a T to a coach who came on to the timeout and demonstratively yelled, "TIMEOUT!" after a call that didn't go his way. That same coach enjoyed a seat next to his assistants for the remainder of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1000107)
Opposing coach won't be happy, and he'll have a beef (no pun intended), but it's an official's error and this is the prescribed way to move on.

Rare to see a comment so well-done...

BlueDevilRef Mon Feb 13, 2017 07:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1000119)
This is what I was thinking too. He probably earned two T's and found a way to blame them on some timeout situation. I've given a T to a coach who came on to the timeout and demonstratively yelled, "TIMEOUT!" after a call that didn't go his way. That same coach enjoyed a seat next to his assistants for the remainder of the game.







Rare to see a comment so well-done...



Especially in this medium

bob jenkins Tue Feb 14, 2017 08:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1000107)
Agree, enjoy your steak. Under NFHS rules, a timeout once granted (even if done so erroneously) shall be honored. Opposing coach won't be happy, and he'll have a beef (no pun intended), but it's an official's error and this is the prescribed way to move on.

At least one (both?) of the NCAA rule sets define this as an inadvertent whistle situation. No TO, give the ball back to the team in control or go POI if no team control.

I think the effect is the same -- because once the IW happens in NCAA, the team can still be granted a TO.

Adam Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyo96 (Post 1000082)
Now that the ball is dead, we confirm with Coach B that he still wants the time out and we grant it.

One follow up note: it doesn't matter if Coach B "still wants the time out" at this point. He gets it. Once you blow the whistle to grant the TO, he no longer has a choice.


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