Throw-In Issue
 

8th Grade Girls Travel, I am administering a throw-in. A1 with the ball, B1 guarding her, as close as they can be to eachother while being legal. There is 6 feet from the endline to the wall. B1 starts out with arms vertical, then clearly crosses the line. I blow the play dead to report the delay of game warning.

Partner comes running over to me, and demonstratively shows me what I "should have done". By indicating to the girls the endline, and that I should have backed each girl off the endline, and don't I know that the penalty for B1 touching the ball is a T (I do), and we don't want to have that, do we?, etc..... It took 15 seconds, very awkward.

I know he is wrong by rule to say we should move each player back...but what about from a game management perspective?

Do I know this guy? Maybe he features prominently in a YouTube video?

It can be an effective tool -- depending on the age and the game.

Six feet? Plenty of space. I'm not moving anyone.

I am always amazed that even in HS there seem to be so many players who don't know (or perhaps appreciate) that they can move back farther.

Don't Move ...
 

Mostly caused by poor coaching.

Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game

"Don't move”, said to an inbounding player, by an official, before a designated spot throw-in, is another statement that should probably go unsaid. According to the rules, that player can move laterally within a three foot wide area, can jump up, and can move as far back as time, and space, will allow. Better statement: “Designated spot”, while pointing to the spot.

I don't instruct players any more than necessary.

Hand the guy the ball, while telling him this is now his shit show, and go take the other position.

Last night we had a team call a timeout while bringing up the ball - up 10 with about 45 seconds to go.

The designated throw-in spot was at the end of the team's bench. I moved it about a foot forward, so the thrower wouldn't be pinned at the bench area, which is a standard practice where I work.

The coach decided to make this his island to die on and I pretty much ignored him, but it amused me cause I knew that the only reason he cared was because he thought the girl would be awkwardly pinned in at the bench. He promised to send me the film, I told him to go for it, and we all know I'll never hear from anyone.

As I was about to bounce the ball, I told the inbounder that she could go as far back as she liked. Yes, it was within earshot of that coach.

Throw-In Issue
 

Rich, you crack me up. [emoji3]

As for my 2¢, if a defender is close to the line I will usually, as a preventative measure, say, "Don't reach over, (color)." Of course half the time they do anyway, but if it's very minor and doesn't affect the TI pass, I'll save my whistle for another time. But if I do need to make a DOG call (or worse), no one can claim I didn't do what I could to prevent it.


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About 65-70 percent of the time, at any level (boys varsity included), if I see there's any sort of pressure being applied on the thrower-in, I instruct the thrower-in that he/she can move back as far as they want. If I see the defender is already overzealous and doing jumping jacks before the ball is even live, I also remind them to treat the throw-in plane as a wall they can't reach through until the pass is released. They don't always listen or understand, but I've tried to help them and avoid a mess, just as we do when we talk players out of the lane or tell them to stop holding/pushing.

I think it's good game management.

As for the OP, your partner had no business doing what he did. That's for the locker room, or during a timeout, if at all. Sounds like you handled the situation perfectly/normally before he came in to give his zero cents.

Build The Wall ...
 

Back when I was working Catholic middle school games, I would tell the overzealous defensive player that this was a "glass wall".

Is this not one of these things that we should not tell players? After all they can cross the line under certain circumstances. :D

Peace

It's A Good Thing That I Don't Work Catholic Middle School Games Anymore ...
 

Good point. Minor point, but nevertheless, a good point.

9-2-10: The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her
person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the
ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

Any other circumstances that I missed?

We have a MS gym here (also hosts JV games for a preseason tournament) that has non-retracting baskets that overhand about 2-3 feet onto the court. If we have a throw in anywhere near them, we move them one way or the other, and just say something along the lines of, "We're going to move you here, that basket (point) is out of bounds." Never have heard of anyone complaining, I'm surprised someone made a big deal about it in your game, especially since I'm assuming you would extend their team the same courtesy.

At the varsity level and higher I don't instruct players anything that their coach should teach them unless they ask a question. The only thing I would remind is a defender to watch the boundary plane.

I agree. To me, telling them they can move backward results in one of two things: 1) They get information they should already know, or 2) that information gets misinterpreted and they violate, and then try to blame the official.

I don't tell the players any of those things. I just officiate the game. I think what you are doing is coaching.

So do you guys talk players out of the lane to avoid 3 seconds, tell post players to stop banging or ever say "hands off" out on the perimeter?

These are all things players should know already too.

For the record, I have no problem with reminding a defensive player not to reach over the boundary plane. With that in mind, I think the difference in our way of thinking is that I will make a comment that may help prevent a needless foul or violation, but not so much as to put a team at an advantage. In other words, I'll talk a player out of putting themselves at a disadvantage (by needing to call a violation or foul), but I won't give them advice.

I think that telling the offense that they can move backwards is giving them advice on how to handle a situation, sort of like telling a ball handler to "fake a pass, make a pass" if they have turned it over, or something like that. I know that's a bit of an extreme example, but my point is that I'm only talking to players to help avoid an infraction. If that possibility isn't there, then I'm not talking to them, unless of course they have a question.

If you have to say "hands off" it is already to late to be considered preventative officiating. At this point you either need to call the foul or ignore a clear violation of 10-1-4.

We talk players out of violations/fouls. We don't coach them on how to play smarter basketball.

I feel like we already had this "coaching vs. preventive officiating" debate a few weeks ago.

The jury is split and the horse is dead. I'm ready to move on, anyone else with me?


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+1

I do not think it is a minor point at all considering this is your logic not to say anything that does not define the actual rule. Me on the other hand believe it is not our job to give a rules clinic every time we say something. The players and teams should know what the rules are and if telling them something helps them understand a point of the rule, that is a win, win for me.

Peace

Glass Wall ...
 

"You can't reach through the glass wall until the throwin pass is released" pretty much covers all relevant rules.

Any other circumstances that I missed?

Helps Them Understand ...
 

Agree, as long as we don't tell them something that's incorrect. It will be a third win if what we tell them is correct.

That is too much if you were going to say anything else. I think "Glass wall" makes the right point. If they do not know what they can do on the release that is on them or their coaching staff.

Peace

Bad Coaching ...
 

I was talking about Catholic middle school games, so let's put it mostly on the coaching staff, and not totally on the kids (although kids do tend to forget what they were taught (this coming from a retired middle school teacher)).

On second thought, forget it, let's go back to "them or their coaching staff". That's just about right.

I think if you said "glass wall" the kids would look at you like you were from Mars. I will tell player on D to not reach over line.

No. It isn't too late. You might not blow the whistle on the first one for whatever reason...happened quick etc. Doesn't mean you are ignoring anything. Tell player once then call foul.

I will say hands off when the arm goes out. Before contact. Call it coaching or whatever you want but makes the game better.

Kids Think The Darndest Things (With Apologies To Art Linkletter) ...
 

Sounds good. Just don't simply tell them not to cross the line, because they may think that that refers to their feet and not their hands and feet.

I just say "hands" and let them decide what they are going to do. I still call a foul when it is appropriate, but usually say that a few times where the defender makes a decision. It does not prevent every situation, but it often confirms the foul.

Peace

If you are trying to give a rules clinic every situation you will take games hours. Not sure why this seems to be your goal, but we tell players and coaches a lot of things that are incomplete and do not tell the entire story.

Peace

Clinics ...
 

Big difference between a high school varsity game and a Catholic middle school game. Most high school varsity games require little, or no, preventive officiating. Catholic middle school games might require some preventive officiating, sometimes something as basic as where players stand on marked lane spaces, and what "one and one" means.

A lot of Catholic middle school games require a "How To Tie Your Sneakers So They Stay Tied" clinic, but I let my partner handle those.

Which One Takes Longer ???
 

"Don't cross over the line."

"Don't reach over the line."

Saying one over the other may add seconds to a game.

Not saying either may lead to a few extra violations that may add a few seconds to the game as well.

Remember we're talking Catholic middle school games here.

I say similar things at the high school level that I would at the middle school (not sure why Catholic or any private school matters). When they do something, they get penalized. I try my best to not nitpick things that are minor. Call the obvious for the most part.

Peace

Young'uns ...
 

We don't see too many second, and third, graders playing in our public middle school leagues.

Part Of Almost Every Pregame ...
 

Agree.

You have made my point exactly. You say it when the hand or arm goes out BEFORE contact. That is preventative officiating. When the hand is already on, and the phrase becomes "hands off" then your are coaching, not preventing and by doing so, you are ignoring a 10-1-4 foul.

If I'm telling a kid what to do or not to do, before or after he does something somebody can always say that's coaching if they want. Frankly, there are things I see that I could call a foul and, for one reason or another I don't. Technically could be foul called but try to stop it before I really have to call it. Post play etc. We are probably not far apart. Im pretty aggressive calling handchecks on dribbler. Still have hard time calling foul when player holding ball and defender puts hand on him. I tell him get it off rather than say nothing and then call foul. If he takes off on dribble and hand stays then I call foul. Saying hands off then would be ignoring a foul as you say.

And my phrase is always hands off. Even as they are reaching out.

I usually say "EASY" in a lot of these situations. Sounds a lot less specific and I get the same result.

+1

Kinda interesting....

From CCA Mechanics manual:

Section 12
Article 1:

When an official calls a violation:

A. Simultaneously give a single sharp blast of the whistle, stop the clock using straight arm and open hand, then drop whistle from the mouth. More than one blast should be used in unusual situations.

B. Move toward the area of violation, stop, then signal the nature of the violation. Simultaneously call out the color of the team entitled to the ball and point in the direction of their goal. Never turn your back when indicating the direction.

C. Indicate the throw-in spot and inform the player that he/she may not leave the spot.

D. Make eye contact with your partners prior to placing the ball at the player’s disposal for the throw-in or placing it on the floor if the team is not at the spot in time.

E. After boxing in players, hand, bounce or put the ball at the disposal of thrower and begin the visible five second count.

On a designated spot throw in I'll tell the thrower-in that it's a spot throw in and he can go as far as back as he wants.

I will continue to do it that way. I do it for all the teams.

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Keep It Simple ...
 

I just say, "That's your designated spot".

Our local mechanic is to only do this on backcourt endline throwins, where there can be two options: designated spot, or run the endline.

Do they tell you how to use the bathroom too?

Way to much micro-managing if this is what they tell you to say or not to say.

Peace

Second Rule ???
 

Like Mark Padgett's First Rule of Officiating?

Look It Up ...
 

Several choices for all individual officials nationwide: say nothing, everybody say (pretty much) the same thing (according to the When In Rome ... principle), or everybody say their own thing.

Since most mechanics sets (IAABO, NFHS, CCA) have us say something (realizing that some geographic areas use an approach allowing for individual expression) we (those that follow a specific mechanics set) might as well say (and signal) what the manual wants us to say (and signal), it doesn't get much (other than the freedom to say (and signal) anything the individual official wants) easier than that, especially when teaching mechanics to new officials (they can look it up).

You understand that "don't move" and "you may not leave the spot" are NOT the same thing, right? The former is wrong; the latter is correct (and it's not the exact words that matter).

BillyMac, check your PMs ...

Yea, kinda. I only provided the info because, based on the topic at the time, I found it interesting that it was specifically written that it is proper to inform the player of that information

You Don't Say ...
 

How many say something ("That's your spot", "Designated spot", "Don't' move" (not my favorite, but When In Rome ...) etc.) for all designated spot throwins? Or do you just say something for designated spot throwins on the backcourt endline? How do the various mechanics sets (NFHS, CCA, IAABO, etc.) handle this?

I say "spot" on EVERY endline throw-in, frontcourt or backcourt. I want as few goofball moments as possible in my games, so anything I can do to prevent even 1 in 100 is worth the extra breath of air.