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Try Or Pass ???
5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The
ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two point area. 4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1) So if a try hits a defender inside the arc (with the try, by definition, ending), it's only two points, but if a pass (thrown ball) hits a defender inside the arc, it's three points?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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A try is also a thrown ball, as noted above multiple times.
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove Last edited by just another ref; Fri Feb 10, 2017 at 12:02am. |
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Try ...
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points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. In order for a thrown ball to be a try, in the official’s judgment, doesn't the thrower have to be attempting to throw for goal? Can't a thrown ball also be a pass? Isn't it true that all trys are thrown balls but not all thrown balls are trys? So, is this true: If a try hits a defender inside the arc, it's only two points, but if a pass hits a defender inside the arc, it's three points?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 10, 2017 at 12:31am. |
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Here is my assessment of the situation, in a nutshell.
4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1) These three words are the key. If the ball is below the rim and clearly will stay below without the deflection, no way can it be a 3.
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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Perplexed In Connecticut ...
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No mention (below) regarding above, or below, the ring. Also, there is no mention regarding whether the official judges this throw to be a try, or to not be a try. So why does this one count three points? If it's simply a three point try that gets tipped by a defender below the arc (a common occurrence) then I get the three points, but what if this was a pass, that deflected off a defender's hand? 5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. 5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown. See 4-5-4.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 10, 2017 at 06:57am. |
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Take it fir what it's worth from the soccer ref/BB dad. |
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Common Sense ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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When the ball is released on a trajectory that may or may not be a 3, we are to assume that the thrower is attempting to put it in the basket...they took that judgement away from us. However, they did not change the rule on who a try ends....when it is clear that it can't go it. Any try or apparent try is over and a ball that goes in due to a deflection after that is only a 2. (Case 4.41.4B)
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association Last edited by Camron Rust; Sun Feb 12, 2017 at 03:04am. |
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Had a play related to this in a college game today. A1, behind the arc, looked to me to be throwing a lob pass to post player A2. So, I didn't give the preliminary "3" signal. The ball went in. I signalled the three.
Turns out, she just has a very strange shooting motion and it was a try all along. |
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A Thrown Ball Can Be A Pass ...
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See case play below. Nowhere in the play does it say that this is a try, nor that it is to be treated as a try. Note the rule (below) that states that it can be a "thrown ball", the word "or" indicating that it my be something other than a try, or a tap, that still counts as three even if touched by a defensive player inside the arc. 5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. 5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown. See 4-5-4. I don't want to count three points for a pass from behind the arc that deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, but I believe that Rule 5-2-2, and Casebook play 5.2.1 SITUATION C, indicate otherwise.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 12, 2017 at 12:42pm. |
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5-2-2, again, is talking about the general case of a ball throw without considering other complications. We have 4.41.4B that clarifies that when it no longer has a chance to go in as thrown, it reverts back to a 2 if anyone else diverts the ball into the basket.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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Logical, But Not What The Rule States ...
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But that not what these citations state. 5.2.1 may not be talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. It may be talking about a pass from behind the three point arc. A thrown ball can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass. And I get that case plays are not usually meant to be general, which is why I've gone to the actual rule that states that it can be a "thrown ball", which can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass. Most of us (hopefully, the rule changed from it's original form (had to be a try) when the arc was first painted on the court) are counting a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc that goes in as three points. If that same alley oop ball touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, or an official, it only counts two points, by rule. But the rule doesn't say anything about the same alley oop pass touching a defender. That only leaves one choice, three points. I don't like that choice, but that's what the rule says. In a real game, if a pass from behind the arc deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, I'm probably counting it as a two. I can sell that to players, coaches, fans, and probably my partner, but that's not what the actual rule says.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 12, 2017 at 01:55pm. |
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The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3. It was never about turning an obvious pass that had no chance of going in into a 3.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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Judgment ...
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I believe that the present rule is poorly written. Can we agree on that?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 12, 2017 at 02:11pm. |
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Thanks Again WreakRef ...
I love this video, and the thread discussion that it generated, so let's see it again:
Does that count as 2 or 3?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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