2 or 3 point field goal?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Apparent try? How does the NFHS define that?

See case play below. Nowhere in the play does it say that this is a try, nor that it is to be treated as a try. Note the rule (below) that states that it can be a "thrown ball", the word "or" indicating that it my be something other than a try, or a tap, that still counts as three even if touched by a defensive player inside the arc.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

I don't want to count three points for a pass from behind the arc that deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, but I believe that Rule 5-2-2, and Casebook play 5.2.1 SITUATION C, indicate otherwise.

5.2.1 is talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot/throw such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. Don't expand it beyond the intended case. Case plays are not usually meant to be broad and general but point examples.

5-2-2, again, is talking about the general case of a ball throw without considering other complications.

We have 4.41.4B that clarifies that when it no longer has a chance to go in as thrown, it reverts back to a 2 if anyone else diverts the ball into the basket.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

5.2.1 is talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot/throw such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. Don't expand it beyond the intended case. Case plays are not usually meant to be broad and general but point examples. 5-2-2, again, is talking about the general case of a ball throw without considering other complications. We have 4.41.4B that clarifies that when it no longer has a chance to go in as thrown, it reverts back to a 2 if anyone else diverts the ball into the basket.

Sounds logical, and well thought out, with a lot of common basketball officiating sense.

But that not what these citations state.

5.2.1 may not be talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. It may be talking about a pass from behind the three point arc. A thrown ball can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

And I get that case plays are not usually meant to be general, which is why I've gone to the actual rule that states that it can be a "thrown ball", which can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

Most of us (hopefully, the rule changed from it's original form (had to be a try) when the arc was first painted on the court) are counting a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc that goes in as three points. If that same alley oop ball touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, or an official, it only counts two points, by rule. But the rule doesn't say anything about the same alley oop pass touching a defender. That only leaves one choice, three points.

I don't like that choice, but that's what the rule says.

In a real game, if a pass from behind the arc deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, I'm probably counting it as a two. I can sell that to players, coaches, fans, and probably my partner, but that's not what the actual rule says.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds logical, and well thought out, with a lot of common basketball officiating sense.

But that not what these citations state.

5.2.1 may not be talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. It may be talking about a pass from behind the three point arc. A thrown ball can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

And I get that case plays are not usually meant to be general, which is why I've gone to the actual rule that states that it can be a "thrown ball", which can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

We just have to use our knowledge of the history and the discussions of why these case plays were created to know where it is intended to be applied.

The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3. It was never about turning an obvious pass that had no chance of going in into a 3.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We just have to use our knowledge of the history ...

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3.

Yes, back when the paint was still wet after the arc was painted on the court for the first time. Back then it had to be a try. That changed to allow a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc to count as three, taking any judgment (thankfully, at the time of the change) away from the official.

I believe that the present rule is poorly written. Can we agree on that?

[BillyMac]

I love this video, and the thread discussion that it generated, so let's see it again:

Does that count as 2 or 3?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does that count as 2 or 3?

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Is this a thrown ball? Yes.

Is the thrown ball successful? Yes.

Is the ball thrown from behind the three point arc? Yes.

Does the thrown ball touch the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official? No.

Does this count as three points? Yes.

Should it count as three points? My opinion, rule is poorly written, no.

I would love to see this same play, but with the ball deflecting off the head of a defensive player. Count that as three and the official will need a police escort out to his car after the game.

[just another ref]

Billy, read the thing on page 8 about intent and purpose of the rules and move on.