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-   -   H.S. Slapping backboard GT (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102196-h-s-slapping-backboard-gt.html)

Welpe Wed Feb 01, 2017 07:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 999060)
he can mention it all he wants and his partner could have given him a reason he was not aware of as a violation.
Good. Glad to see you agree with me since I never said he can or should be overruled.

Hawkeyes Wed Feb 01, 2017 07:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 999054)
You can't go in and overrule your partner(s) but you should offer information in this situation so that it still can be corrected. Talking about it after is good for future reference but doesn't help anything going forward - and it reinforces a rule misconception with those teams that may need to be dealt with down the road. That's a secondary concern but still worth mentioning.
Honestly, reinforcing what fans, coaches and players now think is correct is what is frustrating me the most today!
The play didn't impact the game outcome IMO...
I'm irritated with myself - even considered emailing the coaches from both teams!

Hawkeyes Wed Feb 01, 2017 07:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 999046)
You allowed your crew to kick a rule and award unmerited points to a team. Yes, you should have handled it differently.
You should have held up the resumption of the game following your partner's incorrect ruling and had a conversation right then. He obviously applied the NCAA ruling and the mistake should have been fixed.
This wasn't a situation in which you were uncertain of the NFHS rule or what your partner saw on the play. As the C, you had a great look and you had the proper rules knowledge that the crew needed. You should have spoken up.
Agreed!
I saw the play and passed. It was not "T" worthy! The counting of the basket by my partner was wrong and I should have given the info. this one is not on him, totally on me... I'm the most knowledgeable H.S. official that night! If I were working a college game, you can bet they would have come in and corrected me if I was misapplying a NCAA rule!

JRutledge Wed Feb 01, 2017 08:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 999061)
Good. Glad to see you agree with me since I never said he can or should be overruled.
My comment was not just about the "overruling" of the partner, but even if discussing is going to do any good in most cases. Even if it involves this case if the official is called it based on what they think the rule is.

Peace

OKREF Wed Feb 01, 2017 09:35pm
In this case coming together and talking about it would have been just fine. It wasn't a T as described, it isn't BI. So, if you guys would have changed it, how would you have resumed play? IW? Whose getting the ball?

BlueDevilRef Wed Feb 01, 2017 09:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 999069)
In this case coming together and talking about it would have been just fine. It wasn't a T as described, it isn't BI. So, if you guys would have changed it, how would you have resumed play? IW? Whose getting the ball?


If go with IW, have to go to AP bc no control on the shot attempt.

deecee Thu Feb 02, 2017 07:00am
Had a similar play last year. Fast break I'm new lead, kid goes up for layup and defender comes in for the block and hit the backboard pretty hard, however I thought it was a good block attempt (and one he nearly made). Partner calls T. I go to him and tell him are you sure you don't think it was a block attempt, he said "he hit the backboard pretty hard". I reminded him that's not the standard for the rule and said we can go with an inadvertent whistle or keep the T but the coach is his to deal with. He didn't change his ruling and left me with the coach.

Coach asked me about the T and I said to discuss it with the calling official and went opposite table.

Hawkeyes Thu Feb 02, 2017 08:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 999076)
Had a similar play last year. Fast break I'm new lead, kid goes up for layup and defender comes in for the block and hit the backboard pretty hard, however I thought it was a good block attempt (and one he nearly made). Partner calls T. I go to him and tell him are you sure you don't think it was a block attempt, he said "he hit the backboard pretty hard". I reminded him that's not the standard for the rule and said we can go with an inadvertent whistle or keep the T but the coach is his to deal with. He didn't change his ruling and left me with the coach.

Coach asked me about the T and I said to discuss it with the calling official and went opposite table.
Coach he'll tell you all about it when he comes by in a minute!

Hawkeyes Thu Feb 02, 2017 08:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 999069)
In this case coming together and talking about it would have been just fine. It wasn't a T as described, it isn't BI. So, if you guys would have changed it, how would you have resumed play? IW? Whose getting the ball?
AP is my only option if we don't get the T.

bob jenkins Thu Feb 02, 2017 08:46am
If I'm the calling official in the OP, I want you coming and asking me what I have. If I have something you didn't see, or it's just judgment, then I'll live with it. If I've kicked a rule, then we'll fix it.

And, it is a fine line and where that line falls differs by official.

Take, for example, that "funny looking lifting the pivot foot but not returning it to the floor" travel video we had a few days ago (someone can insert a link, if needed). If you were the non-calling official and had a look -- would you go in? My guess is that most of us would not. But, it's not really any different from the OP, where most of us would go in.

JRutledge Thu Feb 02, 2017 08:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 999081)

Take, for example, that "funny looking lifting the pivot foot but not returning it to the floor" travel video we had a few days ago (someone can insert a link, if needed). If you were the non-calling official and had a look -- would you go in? My guess is that most of us would not. But, it's not really any different from the OP, where most of us would go in.
Here you go.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TBKpy2SXf1g?list=PL33P5XcK3qK-LzMDNTfS1t1N-vKoJxHrG" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Raymond Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 999052)
NCAA officials, if they are going to accept NFHS games, need to-- at the very least -- review pp.75-77 of the rules book delineating the differences between the two rule sets. Partner last week-- and I like him dearly as a friend and a crewmate -- was surprised I called a violation for a player intentionally going OOB and delaying before return inbounds, then called a violation on a player who he determined was first to touch after going OOB and then returning inbounds.
I say, "If they are going to accept NFHS games." They really don't have to. And if they determine not to call the game according to the approved rules set, it's better for the crew and the game if they not officiate high school games.
Comply or deny. Comply with the prevailing rules set, or deny the opportunity to officiate the game.
Simple.
And what about the HS-only officials who apply NCAA and NBA rules they see on TV because they don't get in the rule book at all? I rather have a college guy who occasionally makes an honest mistake in delineating the 2 rule sets as opposed to the multitude of HS-only guys around here who barely get 80's on open book rules tests.

I had my young protégé' tell me about this exact play from his HS game the other night. I simply told him he used the wrong rule set for the play, without the condescending "if you are going accept HS games" lecture.

As for me, I don't need pg 75-77, I study the rules for each level and apply accordingly. If I have a rules question, I go directly to the rule in that level's rule book.

I had a HS game a couple weeks ago where a visiting players was flying OOB airborne in front of the home team's bench and yelled "time out", just before he hit the floor. The home HS coach, who only deals with HS rules, told me the player couldn't do that. I had to remind the HS coach that what he is referring to is a college rule. Maybe coaches shouldn't accept HS positions if they can't keep the rule sets straight.

crosscountry55 Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 999076)
Had a similar play last year. Fast break I'm new lead, kid goes up for layup and defender comes in for the block and hit the backboard pretty hard, however I thought it was a good block attempt (and one he nearly made). Partner calls T. I go to him and tell him are you sure you don't think it was a block attempt, he said "he hit the backboard pretty hard". I reminded him that's not the standard for the rule and said we can go with an inadvertent whistle or keep the T but the coach is his to deal with. He didn't change his ruling and left me with the coach.

Coach asked me about the T and I said to discuss it with the calling official and went opposite table.
The T for slapping the backboard was a POE in....the '08-'09 season, I think. I called it twice that year. Haven't called it since. Slapping the backboard to draw attention to one's self was a fad for a few years. It seems to have passed, no doubt aided by the POE and enforcement for a few years.

Pretty much every slap I see these days is at least marginally connected to a shot block attempt. In other words, unless I'm 110% sure it blatantly wasn't, I'm not calling squat.

Coach Bill Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeyes (Post 999038)
I'm a high school official 99% of the time right now, but have an occasional game with NCAA rules.
Working with two excellent officials that work 60/40 H.S. & NCAA.
4th quarter of a game with decent flow and I'm C on a secondary break.
A2 goes in for a layup and B4 misses the block and slaps the backboard so hard that the rims shakes and layup rolls out. I got nothing, but can feel the crowd's disapproval... My trail official comes flying in and is counting the bucket for a goal-tending violation.
My immediate instinct was: Crap - that's wrong and I need to go correct him...
My words would have been: "We either have to get a technical foul on this play or take back the goal tending?". I'm confident that the trail official was confident that he was right... so I did nothing and figured I'd settle it at the next timeout or post-game.
Next timeout; I tell both of them: "In H.S. that is a T or nothing." They both have a mixed look of: are you sure/I think you're right/oh crap.
BTW: I knew I was 100% right on this one and I showed them 10-4-4 post-game and we had no argument... these are excellent officials!
Q: Did I handle this correctly or should I have gone over and corrected my partner without him asking me for help?
I would have asked for a clarification, which hopefully got your conversation started. But, more likely, caused him to dig in more.


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