The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Recruiting (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102182-recruiting.html)

Terrapins Fan Sun Jan 29, 2017 02:25am

Recruiting
 
What's the best form of recruiting new officials?

We currently run an ad in the newspaper and a spot on the radio. That's it. We get about 4 applications per year. We need 10 to 12 next season.

SNIPERBBB Sun Jan 29, 2017 03:26am

Try flyers at the local colleges. Poor college students need money. Our local associatiin secretary teaches a half semester class at the local college where students can get credit and their license to officiate.

JRutledge Sun Jan 29, 2017 09:38am

Usually the best recruiters are the officials themselves. You can put out all that stuff and appeal to high school and college students, but the best recruiters are usually the people that do it themselves.

Peace

deecee Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:46am

its tough to get new guys, to much negativity with the job.

BlueDevilRef Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:29pm

Appealing to those who do mainly outdoor sports was what got me involved. I've done fastpitch for years and the need for something to do in winter was what drew me in. Try going to softball, football, volleyball, soccer assn meetings and recruit there. Those there will already be officials and know what's up

crosscountry55 Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 998826)
Try flyers at the local colleges. Poor college students need money. Our local associatiin secretary teaches a half semester class at the local college where students can get credit and their license to officiate.



Seems like variations of this idea come up over and over again on this forum. Which got me to thinking.…are there any state associations that have affiliations with colleges and universities for the express purpose of recruiting and training officials?

A class led by a local association dude is an ok idea, but millennials want instant gratification, not another class. So maybe have some evaluators/scouts troll the fall intramural courts, ID those with potential, invite them to a free six-session mechanics series (perhaps provide free officials for a youth tournament or two in a camp-style format), get them registered (first year should be reduced or free) and then assign them some HS frosh games that very same fall (in addition to all the MS/youth ball they want).

Call me crazy but it just might work. And yes, some college students eventually move away (an inherent long-term risk), but not all of them. Plus, if you can model this in multiple states, over time the "move away" problem solves itself as a zero-sum game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Terrapins Fan Mon Jan 30, 2017 06:04am

I appreciate all the advice. We are going to try to contact our two local colleges for possible recruits.

Pantherdreams Mon Jan 30, 2017 08:11am

No gentle way to say this but go out and get some female officials. Same tactics you've been using and others have suggested but target female officials. Once you get them in the door there will be more special interest groups and support systems for them to have access to funds, upward mobility, and support in getting professional development. I know around here to try to promote female coaches and officials for female athletics there are more resources available to those young officials and coaches then there are for their male counter parts.

Also I can't speak for your situation but now that I've seen a couple of different leagues and assignors I would say be careful with the idea of earning your stripes. If you've got a good young official you have to get them in and expose them to the level they want to get to as soon as you can give them that experience. I'm not saying take a first year guy and put him in the league championship at varsity. But losing quality potential officials because they are young competitive interested people that get mired in youth games, middle school and bad freshman games for multiple years doesn't help you either. If they see goals as attainable and not just an accumulation of years in an old boys club they will be more likely to stay. They have to be good enough, but once they are they have to given the opportunity.

We sometimes get interested high school students in and the association covers their gear and fees while they are in high school. They get trained with us at our meetings and sessions and get to work mini (u-11) games and some low level middle school stuff. Then they are in the door early and can use officiating for money while at university.

crosscountry55 Mon Jan 30, 2017 08:47am

Recruiting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 998864)
Also I can't speak for your situation but now that I've seen a couple of different leagues and assignors I would say be careful with the idea of earning your stripes. If you've got a good young official you have to get them in and expose them to the level they want to get to as soon as you can give them that experience. I'm not saying take a first year guy and put him in the league championship at varsity. But losing quality potential officials because they are young competitive interested people that get mired in youth games, middle school and bad freshman games for multiple years doesn't help you either. If they see goals as attainable and not just an accumulation of years in an old boys club they will be more likely to stay. They have to be good enough, but once they are they have to given the opportunity.


This 100x.

I would add that the "wait your turn" mentality is also disrespectful to the game itself in that it directly blocks young and talented officials from getting to the level where the game needs their youthful energy the most (6A/D1 varsity and college).

Assignors have to take advantage of the competitive nature of good young officials in order to promote sustained service AND word-of-mouth recruiting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Terrapins Fan Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:23am

About 15% of our officials are female. And they are doing very well. The majority of them all work Varsity games.

bossman72 Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan (Post 998825)
What's the best form of recruiting new officials?

We currently run an ad in the newspaper and a spot on the radio. That's it. We get about 4 applications per year. We need 10 to 12 next season.

We are just now trying some new stuff for football in my area. We are holding a clinic this weekend designed for anyone who is interested in officiating from 10-2. Coffee/donuts provided and free tshirt to participants.

Made a PDF flyer with a link to a Google Forms to register for the clinic.

I sent an email to all officials in the district, all AD's in the district, and all head football coaches in the local D3 college conference to get the word out.

More importantly, I advertised on Facebook. For $20, the ad ran for 2 weeks. This seemed to get the most response and reach the most people. According to the statistics on the Ad, the post was seen by 9,424 people (2,711 organic reach, 6,713 paid reach) with 422 people clicking the link to view the PDF. I think this is a thousand times more effective than ads in the newspaper.

We got 11 people signed up for the clinic, which isn't bad. If we hadn't done this, we probably would have zero.

bossman72 Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 998864)
Also I can't speak for your situation but now that I've seen a couple of different leagues and assignors I would say be careful with the idea of earning your stripes. If you've got a good young official you have to get them in and expose them to the level they want to get to as soon as you can give them that experience. I'm not saying take a first year guy and put him in the league championship at varsity. But losing quality potential officials because they are young competitive interested people that get mired in youth games, middle school and bad freshman games for multiple years doesn't help you either. If they see goals as attainable and not just an accumulation of years in an old boys club they will be more likely to stay. They have to be good enough, but once they are they have to given the opportunity.

AMEN!

I always say there's a "glass ceiling" for the newer officials that needs to be broken. You are 100% right that good young officials who don't get a chance will just quit. Why put in all this time and effort if they're just going to be put on these garbage games?

Ask yourself this: what is one of the major causes people leave their regular daytime jobs? No opportunity for advancement. Same applies to officiating.

Kansas Ref Mon Jan 30, 2017 03:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossman72 (Post 998872)
AMEN!

I always say there's a "glass ceiling" for the newer officials that needs to be broken. You are 100% right that good young officials who don't get a chance will just quit. Why put in all this time and effort if they're just going to be put on these garbage games?

Ask yourself this: what is one of the major causes people leave their regular daytime jobs? No opportunity for advancement. Same applies to officiating.

*OK, so this is good conversation regarding Recruitment. Hey don't get me wrong, I do agree with the Maslow scale of vocational satisfaction but let us temper our remarks about so-called "garbage games"--because although viewed by veteran refs with disdain---those games mean as much to that 8th grade girl and her parents who took off work an hour early to go watch a 4 PM game---as it means for 12th grade girl who plays varsity and her family is coming to games.
I must say I do like your comparison to 'day job' and career satisfaction in terms of how this affects retention of officials.

crosscountry55 Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 998923)
*OK, so this is good conversation regarding Recruitment. Hey don't get me wrong, I do agree with the Maslow scale of vocational satisfaction but let us temper our remarks about so-called "garbage games"--because although viewed by veteran refs with disdain---those games mean as much to that 8th grade girl and her parents who took off work an hour early to go watch a 4 PM game---as it means for 12th grade girl who plays varsity and her family is coming to games.
I must say I do like your comparison to 'day job' and career satisfaction in terms of how this affects retention of officials.

We all knew what he meant. This conversation is "inside the dressing room" so while your point is valid, the indignation was overkill IMHO.

I'm not one of those officials who feels like I'm above youth ball. That's ok if some feel this way, but for me I get a lot more enjoyment as a (marginal) veteran doing youth ball now that I have more confidence and a good feel for how to interact with coaches and sometimes even fans and parents. These games weren't as enjoyable when I was a rookie because of the poor skills involved and my rookie tendency to call everything I could. I didn't learn nearly as quickly as I did working frosh/JV basketball. Which is why I advocate a good mix of high school basketball in a promising young official's first few years.

packersowner Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:16am

I've noticed two things about the millennials that I work with in trying to get them into officiating.

1 - The path to becoming an official has to be laid out for them. When I started, I made a few phone calls, called the state association, and figured out what I needed to do. The younger guys I have spoken with are very interested, but when I start explaining what they need to do, they generally respond with, "Seems like a lot of work and expense to get started, is there a website or something that tells me what I need to do?" It causes me to question whether we have provided some of the basic steps of how to get started on our own website.

2 - Our association is really good about getting newer officials the opportunity to work all levels of basketball in the first couple of years. However, after about 2 - 3 years, I see younger officials who get frustrated because they are not being given an opportunity to work those upper level games. Everyone officiates for different reasons and motivations. Some of our newer officials are trying to advance past what our association has to offer, some are looking for ways to meet new people, others just like being around the game. I think its helpful to understand this - millennials what to contribute right away and in an impactful way.

Raymond Tue Jan 31, 2017 09:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 998923)
*OK, so this is good conversation regarding Recruitment. Hey don't get me wrong, I do agree with the Maslow scale of vocational satisfaction but let us temper our remarks about so-called "garbage games"--because although viewed by veteran refs with disdain---those games mean as much to that 8th grade girl and her parents who took off work an hour early to go watch a 4 PM game---as it means for 12th grade girl who plays varsity and her family is coming to games.
I must say I do like your comparison to 'day job' and career satisfaction in terms of how this affects retention of officials.

Whether you call them garbage games or something else, there is a point where the caliber or level of the game is not worth stepping out your house or leaving work early.

Besides the pocket and vacation change it provides me, I ref for the challenge and sense of accomplishment. There are some younger men and women who get into officiating with goals in mind. If those goals are not being made available then they lose interest.

Raymond Tue Jan 31, 2017 09:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 998954)
I've noticed two things about the millennials that I work with in trying to get them into officiating.

1 - The path to becoming an official has to be laid out for them. When I started, I made a few phone calls, called the state association, and figured out what I needed to do. The younger guys I have spoken with are very interested, but when I start explaining what they need to do, they generally respond with, "Seems like a lot of work and expense to get started, is there a website or something that tells me what I need to do?" It causes me to question whether we have provided some of the basic steps of how to get started on our own website.
....

I've known a few people who have given up on officiating b/c of the initial expense and lack of a clearly defined path into the avocation.

Pantherdreams Tue Jan 31, 2017 09:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 998960)
Whether you call them garbage games or something else, there is a point where the caliber or level of the game is not worth stepping out your house or leaving work early.

Besides the pocket and vacation change it provides me, I ref for the challenge and sense of accomplishment. There are some younger men and women who get into officiating with goals in mind. If those goals are not being made available then they lose interest.

Even if they don't have upward mobility goals and want to make money and stay involved in the game. For young competitive player who is now transitioning from their playing career to a potential officiating career, low level games are not the "game" they want to stay involved in. Making sure they get games that at least maintain interest and resemble the game as they currently understand it are important to rentention as well.

If they want to be upwardly mobile its important to recognize that as well and work to help carve out a pathway for them, not use them as another viable body.

swkansasref33 Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:10pm

Contact local colleges and ask to speak to the person in charge of intramural programs... Volunteer to help train officials for intramural programs, and use that as a way to recruit officials by making a personal connection with individuals who may have some sort of interest in it.

Rich Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 998962)
Even if they don't have upward mobility goals and want to make money and stay involved in the game. For young competitive player who is now transitioning from their playing career to a potential officiating career, low level games are not the "game" they want to stay involved in. Making sure they get games that at least maintain interest and resemble the game as they currently understand it are important to rentention as well.

If they want to be upwardly mobile its important to recognize that as well and work to help carve out a pathway for them, not use them as another viable body.

As long as they understand that they have to put in the reps and the games at the lower level in order to get where they want to get.

There are people who think they should be working varsity in year 2 who are clearly not ready when things fall down around them. Should we give these people what they want just so they don't walk away?

I'm in year 30 now. Took me 5-6 years before I was even considered for varsity contests. Back then everything was 2-person and you were assigned once you were really ready -- better to be a year late than a day early.

Folks don't want to hear that anymore.

deecee Tue Jan 31, 2017 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998968)
As long as they understand that they have to put in the reps and the games at the lower level in order to get where they want to get.

There are people who think they should be working varsity in year 2 who are clearly not ready when things fall down around them. Should we give these people what they want just so they don't walk away?

I'm in year 30 now. Took me 5-6 years before I was even considered for varsity contests. Back then everything was 2-person and you were assigned once you were really ready -- better to be a year late than a day early.

Folks don't want to hear that anymore.

+1. I go 1 or 2 low level varsity games my second or third year in, however they were a for the most part glorified JV games. It took me 5-6 years to break into the games that are really worth reffing ranks, and even then I'm happy to get 4-5 blockbusters a year. It's these that get me through the other not so fun games.

bossman72 Tue Jan 31, 2017 01:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998968)
There are people who think they should be working varsity in year 2 who are clearly not ready when things fall down around them. Should we give these people what they want just so they don't walk away?

I've found that for every one of those people, there are 4 others that are varsity capable (or big-game capable) and don't get the chance.

I find this more applicable for young guys that have worked varsity and do an outstanding job but never get assigned a "big" game...

...which reminds me of this meme:

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...8/63431628.jpg

justacoach Tue Jan 31, 2017 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 998865)
This 100x.

I would add that the "wait your turn" mentality is also disrespectful to the game itself in that it directly blocks young and talented officials from getting to the level where the game needs their youthful energy the most (6A/D1 varsity and college).

Assignors have to take advantage of the competitive nature of good young officials in order to promote sustained service AND word-of-mouth recruiting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Truly wish you could impart that concept to the associations around here.
A few years back, when my #1 son was in his 2nd Dleague season, he inadvertently left a few dates open in Arbiter. Got assigned a JV game and a GV game. He dutifully took the assignments (and was probably dinged for using pro mechanics)!
Also got penalized 3 game fees for missing mandatory assn meetings. IOW, he paid for the chance to be shat upon.

Matt S. Tue Jan 31, 2017 02:42pm

Some thoughts...
 
I've held off replying to the OP because I wanted to read other responses for a few days. But here's my $.02:

1. I would strongly suggest making connections with intramural directors at area colleges/universities. There are most-likely some officials that want to do more than fraternity league games for $8-10/hour... recruit the top intramural officials--that's what happened to me.

2. I started reffing youth ball when I was 18...this is my 18th season on the court. I've been licensed in 8 different states--I've worked a varsity game in 7 of the 8 states. My point is that those that have the 'want to' can and do move up.

That said, the proverbial juice has to be worth the squeeze. In other words, if I was in school (or just out of it) today and wanted to make a few extra bucks, would I get licensed and join an association for $40-50/game? I'm not sure, especially if there was other part time work available at a better hourly rate, that didn't involve getting yelled at.

I firmly believe that recruiting young officials is easier than retaining them...but again, there has to be 'want to' on both sides of the equation (and there have to be AD's and state associations that are on board with the notion of accepting younger officials)

Rich Tue Jan 31, 2017 03:02pm

Besides being a veteran official, I'm an assigner -- and I am a firm believer of getting younger people into the mix of varsity assignments as early as I feel comfortable with them and/or the situation. I had a college student work a game that I observed last night and he's one of the best officials I've seen this year -- I've passed his name onto other assigners already.

But keep in mind that I am in the business of filling 348 varsity games a season -- both great and 1* games, both boys and girls. If I schedule a crew to work a 1* game, I'm not interested in hearing complaints about it. I work my share of those and I turn down subsequent great assignments cause I'm honoring my contract.

One thing I've noticed is that many of the bad behaviors in officials come from people who are newer to this world. If I had to list my 10 biggest annoyances this season, 8 of them would come from younger officials.

For example, double booking and then taking the closer / better game and dumping the other one. Another example: Telling me that they only want boys games from me and thinking I should honor this request (even though it's fine if they happen to get assigned to girls playoff games -- they'll work those, of course.) Frankly, there are maybe 3-4 officials who work for me who I honor the "boys only" request (because they are men's college officials and I like having them a couple of times a season) and the rest get to work both or not work at all for me.

I'm only 3 years into this gig now, but I've seen enough to say that it's not as simple as some people think. I've cut loose some really good officials cause I do not like how they take care of their business. I'm paid to assign games once. In my world, dependable trumps excellent.

packersowner Tue Jan 31, 2017 05:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998973)
Besides being a veteran official, I'm an assigner -- and I am a firm believer of getting younger people into the mix of varsity assignments as early as I feel comfortable with them and/or the situation. I had a college student work a game that I observed last night and he's one of the best officials I've seen this year -- I've passed his name onto other assigners already.

But keep in mind that I am in the business of filling 348 varsity games a season -- both great and 1* games, both boys and girls. If I schedule a crew to work a 1* game, I'm not interested in hearing complaints about it. I work my share of those and I turn down subsequent great assignments cause I'm honoring my contract.

One thing I've noticed is that many of the bad behaviors in officials come from people who are newer to this world. If I had to list my 10 biggest annoyances this season, 8 of them would come from younger officials.

For example, double booking and then taking the closer / better game and dumping the other one. Another example: Telling me that they only want boys games from me and thinking I should honor this request (even though it's fine if they happen to get assigned to girls playoff games -- they'll work those, of course.) Frankly, there are maybe 3-4 officials who work for me who I honor the "boys only" request (because they are men's college officials and I like having them a couple of times a season) and the rest get to work both or not work at all for me.

I'm only 3 years into this gig now, but I've seen enough to say that it's not as simple as some people think. I've cut loose some really good officials cause I do not like how they take care of their business. I'm paid to assign games once. In my world, dependable trumps excellent.

Lots of great points here. Dependability goes a long ways in making sure that official get better games. If you are willing to take care of your schedule, you're probably willing to take care of business on the court.

Blindolbat Wed Feb 01, 2017 01:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 998865)
This 100x.

I would add that the "wait your turn" mentality is also disrespectful to the game itself in that it directly blocks young and talented officials from getting to the level where the game needs their youthful energy the most (6A/D1 varsity and college).

Assignors have to take advantage of the competitive nature of good young officials in order to promote sustained service AND word-of-mouth recruiting.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

First of all, we all know it takes a special breed of person to stay in this job for more than a season or two. Being able to put in the hours, take the abuse, and still wanting to continue is rare. However, for the people that have a love and make it through the first 2-3 years, I can't 2nd this enough. We've lost many a good officials over the last few years because the more established veterans will only do upper level varsity games or only work on nights the biggest games are on. Which leaves the "newer" officials with sub-varsity and an occasional low level varsity. Many of these "new" officials have more than 10 years of experience and have proven to be very capable of doing any high school game. However, have been shown that until the top echelon move on they won't get a shot at the best of games. Unfortunately, people get tired of being told that and eventually leave or find another sport to officiate.
To no one's surprise, they end up discouraging friends and other potential officials from joining the ranks. Word of mouth works both ways.

High school sports sees shortage of officials approaching 'critical' stage | Sports | gazettetimes.com

UNIgiantslayers Wed Feb 01, 2017 02:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998973)
Besides being a veteran official, I'm an assigner -- and I am a firm believer of getting younger people into the mix of varsity assignments as early as I feel comfortable with them and/or the situation. I had a college student work a game that I observed last night and he's one of the best officials I've seen this year -- I've passed his name onto other assigners already.

But keep in mind that I am in the business of filling 348 varsity games a season -- both great and 1* games, both boys and girls. If I schedule a crew to work a 1* game, I'm not interested in hearing complaints about it. I work my share of those and I turn down subsequent great assignments cause I'm honoring my contract.

One thing I've noticed is that many of the bad behaviors in officials come from people who are newer to this world. If I had to list my 10 biggest annoyances this season, 8 of them would come from younger officials.

For example, double booking and then taking the closer / better game and dumping the other one. Another example: Telling me that they only want boys games from me and thinking I should honor this request (even though it's fine if they happen to get assigned to girls playoff games -- they'll work those, of course.) Frankly, there are maybe 3-4 officials who work for me who I honor the "boys only" request (because they are men's college officials and I like having them a couple of times a season) and the rest get to work both or not work at all for me.

I'm only 3 years into this gig now, but I've seen enough to say that it's not as simple as some people think. I've cut loose some really good officials cause I do not like how they take care of their business. I'm paid to assign games once. In my world, dependable trumps excellent.

This is good stuff. Thanks for the insight.

Our new assigner this year is 180 degrees from how the old one did it. I'm close to a major metro league in our state, and for years, the former assigner would only give the metro league games to the old boys club and it was really tough to break into. A friend of mine did games for him for 8 years and would get ~1 or 2 metro games a year, instead being sent 90-120 minutes every Tuesday and Friday night with the occasional proximal small school game. That's fine sometimes, but you've got to throw a guy a bone once in a while. The new guy has been so great about getting everyone into the metro league rather than just the old stand-bys. I actually left the old assigner because of so many people with the same experiences as my friend, and in my first year back with this association this year, I've gotten a couple of the metro league games even though I've only been reffing 5 years and doing varsity for a couple. I also try hard to never turn games back, and to always let him know if I free up a night I had blocked and go wherever he asks me to go, so hopefully that will pay off in the long run.

RedAndWhiteRef Wed Feb 01, 2017 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by swkansasref33 (Post 998966)
Contact local colleges and ask to speak to the person in charge of intramural programs... Volunteer to help train officials for intramural programs, and use that as a way to recruit officials by making a personal connection with individuals who may have some sort of interest in it.

We have several officials in our association who are student refs at the local university. Doing IM was how I started officiating.

Player989random Thu Feb 02, 2017 06:38pm

As a young (I kill the median in every group I'm in) ref in 3 sports, I notice the same problem in each group I'm with. Answering the recruiting, go to an intramural program. Believe you me, when I heard $65 as the starting game fee I gave up dealing with frat-fights every Sunday-Thursday for $9/hour. Your bigger issue is retention. Even in IM's we had about a 16% return rate. Most kids left because they couldn't handle being shouted at for 3 hours a night. Now imagine those guys in a gym on Friday night.

Yet even if you find the guys who don't care about Billy the angry dad, you get the guys who are tired of the politics and lack of mobility. I'm not reffing girl's MS for 4 years to "pay my dues" when it's clear as day that the Varsity guys can't even walk up and down a court. Hearing crap like we were "great officials but too young to work Varsity" while a board member's nephew worked a playoff game in his 2nd year didn't help."Trust the process" they said. **** the process.

As for the belief that "we don't want to hear" that we aren't ready, nah man, we're just tired of the corruption. You'll never be ready for even a bad Varsity game if you spend all your time reffing 5-step travels and double dribbles. And I've never met a good ref who thought he was Varsity ready after his first year.

My advice is that when you go to recruit these kids, you be honest. You won't work Varsity for a while, and even then not a quality one, because of office politics. Once they hear that, most will stay because they're curious, or want the cash. Lord knows it's why I do soccer.

Rich Thu Feb 02, 2017 09:03pm

I worked underclass ball for 5-6 years before I got a full varsity schedule.

One thing people don't get is that for a new official to get a spot on a staff I have to cut another person or cut a few people back.

I had the occasion to get an email from an official who is in his 3rd year who told me he was proficient in 3-person mechanics and should get games. He'd In a pinch I sent him with an experienced crew and showed he had no clue how to work the system.

In the end, it's about assigner comfort to a certain degree. I can say this, however. If you took the time to communicate with me and express your concerns, I would either work with you or put you with a crew I trust and give you a fair shake.

Then again, where I live there are league assigners and not every game flows through one person, which is a better system, I think, for those who want to be seen and move up.

Kansas Ref Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Player989random (Post 999135)
As a young (I kill the median in every group I'm in) ref in 3 sports, I notice the same problem in each group I'm with. Answering the recruiting, go to an intramural program. Believe you me, when I heard $65 as the starting game fee I gave up dealing with frat-fights every Sunday-Thursday for $9/hour. Your bigger issue is retention. Even in IM's we had about a 16% return rate. Most kids left because they couldn't handle being shouted at for 3 hours a night. Now imagine those guys in a gym on Friday night.

Yet even if you find the guys who don't care about Billy the angry dad, you get the guys who are tired of the politics and lack of mobility. I'm not reffing girl's MS for 4 years to "pay my dues" when it's clear as day that the Varsity guys can't even walk up and down a court. Hearing crap like we were "great officials but too young to work Varsity" while a board member's nephew worked a playoff game in his 2nd year didn't help."Trust the process" they said. **** the process.

As for the belief that "we don't want to hear" that we aren't ready, nah man, we're just tired of the corruption. You'll never be ready for even a bad Varsity game if you spend all your time reffing 5-step travels and double dribbles. And I've never met a good ref who thought he was Varsity ready after his first year.

My advice is that when you go to recruit these kids, you be honest. You won't work Varsity for a while, and even then not a quality one, because of office politics. Once they hear that, most will stay because they're curious, or want the cash. Lord knows it's why I do soccer.

*valid points actually.

Raymond Fri Feb 03, 2017 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 999164)
*valid points actually.

And as somebody who has officiated his entire 16 year officiating career in Virginia, his accounting of how things go in the commonwealth rings true.

Rich Fri Feb 03, 2017 02:09pm

Still, there's a middle ground.

Young officials think the old guys should step aside. Old guys think the young guys should wait their turn.

Neither position is right.

Kansas Ref Fri Feb 03, 2017 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999187)
Still, there's a middle ground.

Young officials think the old guys should step aside. Old guys think the young guys should wait their turn.

Neither position is right.

*So, given that you yourself are very familiar with both the "assigning" tasks and the evaluation of an official's "suitability for varsity games": what in your humble opinion is the normal period of time [or number of basketball seasons] for an official to realistically be expected to transition from sub-varsity to varsity?

Raymond Fri Feb 03, 2017 02:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 999188)
*So, given that you yourself are very familiar with both the "assigning" tasks and the evaluation of an official's "suitability for varsity games": what in your humble opinion is the normal period of time [or number of basketball seasons] for an official to realistically be expected to transition from sub-varsity to varsity?

There is no set answer for that. I have worked with guys who are ready after 1 season as long as you put them on the court with at least one trusted veteran who can handle coaches and any unusual situations. I have a protégé right now who is still 19 (or may have recently turned 20). He's not ready for the big time rivalry games or post-season Boys Varsity, but he is already trusted by 2 different HS commissioners to work regular season BV; and rightfully so.

I didn't start officiating until I was 37 years old. By my 2nd season I was getting BV games, in part because my military background gave me a maturity and presence that came across on the court, and I studied the rule book.

Rich Fri Feb 03, 2017 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 999188)
*So, given that you yourself are very familiar with both the "assigning" tasks and the evaluation of an official's "suitability for varsity games": what in your humble opinion is the normal period of time [or number of basketball seasons] for an official to realistically be expected to transition from sub-varsity to varsity?

There is no set answer to this.

I have worked with a 19 year old a few times in the past few years and he gets his calls right and works well. As long as he's with someone who can make sure coaches stay off his back and let him work, he's fine.

Some people take longer.

With everyone hiring 3 officials now for every game, we need 50% more varsity officials on every given night than we did 10 years ago. So some officials are moving up quicker......many of them are ready for it. Some are not.

I was 18 when I started and did not get under a trusted official's wing. So I had to learn things on my own, the hard way and it took me longer. And with 2-person crews, it was a slower process for even the best and it was accepted that good officials were working JV.

Kansas Ref Mon Feb 06, 2017 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999191)
There is no set answer to this.

I have worked with a 19 year old a few times in the past few years and he gets his calls right and works well. As long as he's with someone who can make sure coaches stay off his back and let him work, he's fine.

Some people take longer..

*Rich and BNR---I think we all realize that there are "exceptions" and "outliers" (i.e., the 19 yr ole kid who is so awesome that he gets high level varsity tournaments in his 2nd year of NF officiating); however, the simple question posed here is: Given that an aspiring official has attended the requisite camps, officiated the requisite sub-varsity schedule, had no Arbiter declines, and is working with a fair assignor, then what is a reasonable amount of time ["seasons of officiating"] that they ought to realistically expect to be transitioned from sub-varsity to varsity?

I would expect that number to be "Five" seasons of officiating. I base this on the reasoning from a well-informed book about human cognitive development and expertise in task operations [the book= "The Tipping Point", Malcolm Gladwell] in which he asserts that 10,000 hours of training/experience/practice on a given complex task will generally provide enough interactions and unique episodes with the subject matter to enable a person to go from "beginner" to "experienced". So, 5 years of officiating (even if done for 3 month long NF seasons only plus combined with camp attendance and reffing non-NF games off season) will get you pretty close to that 10,000 hours. Furthermore, it was described that any additional training after 10,000 hours when the task is not systematically increased in complexity/challenge will actually result in an erosion of the intended developed skill.
And in closing, I realize I have been long-winded here, but we must treat this situation of "official recruitment/retention" in a well-considered manner. Thanks, All.

Rich Mon Feb 06, 2017 02:24pm

Year 3 I could see using that official and observing the work. Swag on my part...

Raymond Mon Feb 06, 2017 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 999431)
*Rich and BNR---I think we all realize that there are "exceptions" and "outliers" (i.e., the 19 yr ole kid who is so awesome that he gets high level varsity tournaments in his 2nd year of NF officiating); however, the simple question posed here is: Given that an aspiring official has attended the requisite camps, officiated the requisite sub-varsity schedule, had no Arbiter declines, and is working with a fair assignor, then what is a reasonable amount of time ["seasons of officiating"] that they ought to realistically expect to be transitioned from sub-varsity to varsity?

I would expect that number to be "Five" seasons of officiating. I base this on the reasoning from a well-informed book about human cognitive development and expertise in task operations [the book= "The Tipping Point", Malcolm Gladwell] in which he asserts that 10,000 hours of training/experience/practice on a given complex task will generally provide enough interactions and unique episodes with the subject matter to enable a person to go from "beginner" to "experienced". So, 5 years of officiating (even if done for 3 month long NF seasons only plus combined with camp attendance and reffing non-NF games off season) will get you pretty close to that 10,000 hours. Furthermore, it was described that any additional training after 10,000 hours when the task is not systematically increased in complexity/challenge will actually result in an erosion of the intended developed skill.
And in closing, I realize I have been long-winded here, but we must treat this situation of "official recruitment/retention" in a well-considered manner. Thanks, All.

Outliers are created by training, a commitment to learning, and coach-ability. My opinion/observation is that officials who commit to higher level camps and training opportunities are ready for BV within 2-3 seasons of that commitment.

Rich Mon Feb 06, 2017 03:11pm

There's a difference, too, between using someone as a U2 in a lower intensity game and as an R in a nutcutter.

bossman72 Tue Feb 07, 2017 09:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999441)
There's a difference, too, between using someone as a U2 in a lower intensity game and as an R in a nutcutter.

Exactly. We kind of say "varsity" in this thread like once you break in to varsity you're ready from everything from Single-A to 6-A, which is obviously not the case.

You can use some of these new guys (competent year 3 guys, maybe year 2) in the lower classification games (small schools are "Single-A" here). Use the new guys in a few Single-A games mid-season that don't mean anything in the standings or a non-conference game. Gets their feet wet and doesn't affect much in the grand scheme of things.

KansasRef, IMO 5 years is wayyyyyy too long to wait for varsity. Especially when the young guy works a sub-varsity game with the old guy that does varsity, and the young guy does just as good of a job as the old guy, if not better (maybe slight edge due to mobility and fresh rules knowledge). That would make guys quit if they're sitting on the bench and that guy is getting varsity games.

Kansas Ref Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:23am

Thank you, all.

JRutledge Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999141)
I worked underclass ball for 5-6 years before I got a full varsity schedule.

I worked varsity in my very first year. By my second year the vast majority of my games were varsity level. Now I worked many more girls varsity that year than boys and still had to earn my right to get move boys varsity games and by my third year I had much fewer girls games than boys. I attribute that all to dedications and seeking training and advice. Many officials just work games and hope that they are given a chance. You got to put in the work and become a gym rat on some level if you want someone to have that confidence in you.

Peace

Rich Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 999509)
I worked varsity in my very first year. By my second year the vast majority of my games were varsity level. Now I worked many more girls varsity that year than boys and still had to earn my right to get move boys varsity games and by my third year I had much fewer girls games than boys. I attribute that all to dedications and seeking training and advice. Many officials just work games and hope that they are given a chance. You got to put in the work and become a gym rat on some level if you want someone to have that confidence in you.

Peace

I won't argue with you, but also understand that everything back then was 2-person and I lived in an area where even the BEST officials got no more than 2-3 days a week. They also worked ALL GV/BV DH, which cut opportunities even further. Rural area - Lots of guys, few games. Things improved for me quickly once I moved to a more urban area for grad school.

Here if I was a real go-getter, I could work 6-7 days a week and build a varsity schedule very quickly.

JRutledge Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999510)
I won't argue with you, but also understand that everything back then was 2-person and I lived in an area where even the BEST officials got no more than 2-3 games a week. Rural area - Lots of guys, few games. Things improved for me quickly once I moved to a more urban area for grad school.

Here if I was a real go-getter, I could work 6-7 days a week and build a varsity schedule very quickly.

I should have stated that this often took place when 3 person was coming in. My first varsity game was a 3 person game. The next season many of the games were 3 person, but not all. By my third year, almost every game was 3 person at the varsity level.

Peace

Rich Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 999512)
I should have stated that this often took place when 3 person was coming in. My first varsity game was a 3 person game. The next season many of the games were 3 person, but not all. By my third year, almost every game was 3 person at the varsity level.

Peace

We're seeing that here, too. Within the last 3 years we've gone from 15% 3-person to about 95% 3-person -- to the point where I'm confident I won't work another 2-person game the rest of my career (I'm not counting summer games or youth games, which I work once or twice a year) unless I fill in at a lower level.

JRutledge Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 999513)
We're seeing that here, too. Within the last 3 years we've gone from 15% 3-person to about 95% 3-person -- to the point where I'm confident I won't work another 2-person game the rest of my career (I'm not counting summer games or youth games, which I work once or twice a year) unless I fill in at a lower level.

When I was starting, a lot of officials had never worked 3 person. So I was just as knowledgeable about that system as many veteran that had been working 2 person their entire career and did not know. So that was my in. Now I was not as good of an official, but I knew what to do in that system to get by. That is not so much the case anymore. Veterans know what they are doing and if you don't, now you can screw things up in everyone's eyes. Usually it takes officials about 5 years where we can "hide" them in a 3 person system as everyone including the coaches know more about what we do than they did when I started 20 years ago. And this is really the case with video the way it is now used.

Peace


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:10am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1