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crosscountry55 Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:04am

Public Service Announcement
 
Setting: Wisconsin. Heard a PSA on ESPN radio this evening. It was the WIAA encouraging prior student-athletes to "stay connected to the game!" and "become a high school sports official." Maybe this ad has been around for a while, or maybe it's new....I have no idea. Regardless, a bunch of thoughts immediately entered my head:

1. Does the target audience realize that in most sports, you're not going to immediately get on a high school field/floor? Obviously there needs to be a year or two of tuning at the youth/middle school level. This is like when the Navy runs ads that show planes taking off from aircraft carriers and submarines breaching on an emergency blow.....but they never show sailors carrying trash bags down the pier or conducting maintenance on fire hoses.

2. I had a D1 Boys Varsity game last night with a full gym, a somewhat hostile crowd, an ignoramus coach and two player technicals for dumb stuff. For my 3 hours of active fight prevention efforts I received.....$50. So, does the target audience realize that, when making it to the varsity level in Wisconsin, the varsity compensation is only in the 8th percentile nationwide? I think only some areas in SC and LA may be worse.

3. Does the target audience believe that the increase in spectator harassment of officials in recent years is being addressed by schools, game managers, and the state office? Because I sure don't.

There's a shortage of officials here, so the PSA was no surprise. But as in most areas with shortages, the issue isn't so much about getting new officials as it is about keeping them once they try it out. Transparent expectations, a reasonable evaluation system, equitable compensation vis-à-vis other states, and a sportsmanship revival would go a lot farther, IMHO, than a radio advertisement. If we did all of these things, than word-of-mouth would easily supplant the need for advertising.

just another ref Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:19am

$50? LA is not worse than this.

One game? What took 3 hours?

Nevadaref Thu Jan 19, 2017 02:46am

1. I started with a freshman game when I first joined an officials association. I had never done MS or youth ball. I worked an entire year of HS games before I ever worked a game with kids younger than HS age.

2. Is that $50 fee for 2-man or 3-man? If it is 2-man, then that's awful. If it is 3-man, then I can tell you that your local area assignors and schools agreed to take the prior 2-man crew fee and chop it three ways. That screws the officials, imo.
Where did you get your national percentile numbers? I'd like to see that chart/list.

3. You are correct on this point.

SNIPERBBB Thu Jan 19, 2017 07:26am

Ohio you do every level but varsity until you are a class 1 official. Which you can qualify for after yout second season.

Some schools pay 50 for JV games here.

UNIgiantslayers Thu Jan 19, 2017 08:53am

For a single varsity game, $75 is pretty standard in my area. Anything below that level is substantially less. Single varsity games happen very rarely, mostly in the case of inclement weather cancellations and they play the game on a Saturday morning/afternoon. We've had some pretty icy weather the past few weeks so they are still catching up with these single varsity games in this area.

Pantherdreams Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:07am

There is a scale here for games but you have to get beyond varsity to be making more than 50 a game.

However you do get travel so long as you have to leave the town you live in, so often the travel pay is more than you get for the game. Officials in urban setting complain about not getting the travel money but can often get more games per week/ per on weekends than in rural setting,

UNIgiantslayers Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 997841)
There is a scale here for games but you have to get beyond varsity to be making more than 50 a game.

However you do get travel so long as you have to leave the town you live in, so often the travel pay is more than you get for the game. Officials in urban setting complain about not getting the travel money but can often get more games per week/ per on weekends than in rural setting,

We only get mileage during postseason tournament games. A couple years ago, I got a call that they really needed someone to cover a game that was 2 hours away. The mileage check was bigger than the actual game check.

Rich Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 997816)
Setting: Wisconsin. Heard a PSA on ESPN radio this evening. It was the WIAA encouraging prior student-athletes to "stay connected to the game!" and "become a high school sports official." Maybe this ad has been around for a while, or maybe it's new....I have no idea. Regardless, a bunch of thoughts immediately entered my head:

1. Does the target audience realize that in most sports, you're not going to immediately get on a high school field/floor? Obviously there needs to be a year or two of tuning at the youth/middle school level. This is like when the Navy runs ads that show planes taking off from aircraft carriers and submarines breaching on an emergency blow.....but they never show sailors carrying trash bags down the pier or conducting maintenance on fire hoses.

2. I had a D1 Boys Varsity game last night with a full gym, a somewhat hostile crowd, an ignoramus coach and two player technicals for dumb stuff. For my 3 hours of active fight prevention efforts I received.....$50. So, does the target audience realize that, when making it to the varsity level in Wisconsin, the varsity compensation is only in the 8th percentile nationwide? I think only some areas in SC and LA may be worse.

3. Does the target audience believe that the increase in spectator harassment of officials in recent years is being addressed by schools, game managers, and the state office? Because I sure don't.

There's a shortage of officials here, so the PSA was no surprise. But as in most areas with shortages, the issue isn't so much about getting new officials as it is about keeping them once they try it out. Transparent expectations, a reasonable evaluation system, equitable compensation vis-à-vis other states, and a sportsmanship revival would go a lot farther, IMHO, than a radio advertisement. If we did all of these things, than word-of-mouth would easily supplant the need for advertising.

So, what's the solution? What are the little details that would make these things happen?

I work the $50 games, too. Most I make here (absent mileage) is $72. Am I worth more? Absolutely.

Do I think your list includes things I would like to see? Sure. How do we make those things happen?

It's easy to move into an area, hate the area, and then bitch about it.

Could be worse, you know. We could live in Arizona and be forced to work every game 2-person.

By the way, I just talked to a school that pays $50 for freshman and JV and $60 (the conference rate) for varsity. I know that some of those $50 schools pay $45 for subvarsity. That's one thing that should be bothering varsity officials.

crosscountry55 Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 997819)
$50? LA is not worse than this.



One game? What took 3 hours?



I was including the hour pre-game period.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

crosscountry55 Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 997821)
Where did you get your national percentile numbers? I'd like to see that chart/list.

Second hand through my association. It's affiliated with NASO which helped the association prepare for and brief a state district meeting back in the fall.

Rich Thu Jan 19, 2017 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 997857)
Second hand through my association. It's affiliated with NASO which helped the association prepare for and brief a state district meeting back in the fall.

I think that any solution to pay needs to be a multi-year solution.

The problem with pay in Wisconsin (and I know this first hand from both sides of the process) is that schools/conferences give a $5 increase and then spend 10 years tabling discussion on officiating pay. I have meeting notes that show this.

When I moved here in 2002, we got $50 to $55 for a varsity game, 2-person.

Now it's 3-person and we're getting $50 to $85 for a game (yes, parts of WI pay $85. Note that the $85 is in the most northern, remote areas of the state where they replaced mileage payments with a higher fee).

Let's use $60 as a typical game fee:

Schools look at things this way -- we've gone from paying $120/game to $180/game -- that's a 50% increase. Over the course of a season we need to pay $1320 more (11 boys and 11 girls home games) for basketball officiating.

We look at it like this: I made $60 to work a game in 2006 and I make $60 now.

So there is at least 1.5 sides to this. But the $50 thing is a real problem, I'll agree.

crosscountry55 Thu Jan 19, 2017 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 997853)
So, what's the solution? What are the little details that would make these things happen?

I work the $50 games, too. Most I make here (absent mileage) is $72. Am I worth more? Absolutely.

Do I think your list includes things I would like to see? Sure. How do we make those things happen?

It's easy to move into an area, hate the area, and then bitch about it.

Could be worse, you know. We could live in Arizona and be forced to work every game 2-person.

By the way, I just talked to a school that pays $50 for freshman and JV and $60 (the conference rate) for varsity. I know that some of those $50 schools pay $45 for subvarsity. That's one thing that should be bothering varsity officials.

Yes, I introduced a problem without a detailed solution. But I did at least address some worthwhile lines of effort (transparency, credible evals, compensation modernization, and something more than lip service to sportsmanship). My expectation for the licensing fee that I pay to the state office every year would be for the full-time employees in Stevens Point to take a more proactive approach to getting into the details of these issues. I wouldn't even mind paying a little more money for the fee. How about a sliding scale of increasing fees that corresponds to your level? That wouldn't discourage newbies, but it would get the veterans more invested in improvements.

Anyway, I'm not trying to stir the pot so much as I'm starting a conversation about a topic that fascinates me. I'll still go work my $50 varsity games and (don't tell anyone) probably enjoy most of them. But for every one of me, there's a younger official or two who may be disenfranchised by our primitive processes. A PSA isn't going to fix the root problem. It's just lipstick on a pig.

Great point about the minimal difference between sub-varsity and varsity compensation. It's been brought up before but bears repeating. That is a huge problem.

crosscountry55 Thu Jan 19, 2017 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 997859)
Schools look at things this way -- we've gone from paying $120/game to $180/game -- that's a 50% increase. Over the course of a season we need to pay $1320 more (11 boys and 11 girls home games) for basketball officiating.

My intent was not to get hung up solely on fees, but to offer this as a comeback, let's assume each team has 12 players on it's roster. That's 24 per game. 24 players probably equates to about 36 parents in the stands. Assuming some other locals and non-student siblings decide to come watch, now we're at 50. So if you charge just one extra dollar at the gate, that's $50 of your $60 difference right there. Charge students a dollar or two as well, and you're easily over $60.

The reluctance to nominally increase admission and/or the temptation to keep it for booster program use is a real obstacle.

Rich Thu Jan 19, 2017 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 997863)
My intent was not to get hung up solely on fees, but to offer this as a comeback, let's assume each team has 12 players on it's roster. That's 24 per game. 24 players probably equates to about 36 parents in the stands. Assuming some other locals and non-student siblings decide to come watch, now we're at 50. So if you charge just one extra dollar at the gate, that's $50 of your $60 difference right there. Charge students a dollar or two as well, and you're easily over $60.

The reluctance to nominally increase admission and/or the temptation to keep it for booster program use is a real obstacle.

Have you ever had a coach argue with you about throwing out a $5 cut baseball because of "his budget?" I have. I could hear the Twilight Zone music playing in the background.

Some teams have new uniforms almost every season, I get that. But I'm just saying what the schools think about this issue.

I will say this -- I made a proposal myself for the conference I'm affiliated with that I thought was fair -- and included a 5-year plan for increases and it passed unanimously. It isn't ALL the schools and conferences who are like this -- it's just some of them.

jamesshank Thu Jan 19, 2017 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 997816)
Setting: Wisconsin. Heard a PSA on ESPN radio this evening. It was the WIAA encouraging prior student-athletes to "stay connected to the game!" and "become a high school sports official." Maybe this ad has been around for a while, or maybe it's new....I have no idea. Regardless, a bunch of thoughts immediately entered my head:

1. Does the target audience realize that in most sports, you're not going to immediately get on a high school field/floor? Obviously there needs to be a year or two of tuning at the youth/middle school level. This is like when the Navy runs ads that show planes taking off from aircraft carriers and submarines breaching on an emergency blow.....but they never show sailors carrying trash bags down the pier or conducting maintenance on fire hoses.

2. I had a D1 Boys Varsity game last night with a full gym, a somewhat hostile crowd, an ignoramus coach and two player technicals for dumb stuff. For my 3 hours of active fight prevention efforts I received.....$50. So, does the target audience realize that, when making it to the varsity level in Wisconsin, the varsity compensation is only in the 8th percentile nationwide? I think only some areas in SC and LA may be worse.

3. Does the target audience believe that the increase in spectator harassment of officials in recent years is being addressed by schools, game managers, and the state office? Because I sure don't.

There's a shortage of officials here, so the PSA was no surprise. But as in most areas with shortages, the issue isn't so much about getting new officials as it is about keeping them once they try it out. Transparent expectations, a reasonable evaluation system, equitable compensation vis-à-vis other states, and a sportsmanship revival would go a lot farther, IMHO, than a radio advertisement. If we did all of these things, than word-of-mouth would easily supplant the need for advertising.

I agree whole heartedly with everything you said. I work in the other WIAA (Washington) and we get $47 for varsity here (3 man varsity crews) plus mileage if out of town (only one person gets mileage as we are encouraged to ride together). I do feel that sub varsity ($42 for 2 man crew) games should get paid equally to varsity bc they are more difficult to officiate bc of the talent level and the coaches seem more ridiculous.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Rich Thu Jan 19, 2017 02:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesshank (Post 997872)
I agree whole heartedly with everything you said. I work in the other WIAA (Washington) and we get $47 for varsity here (3 man varsity crews) plus mileage if out of town (only one person gets mileage as we are encouraged to ride together). I do feel that sub varsity ($42 for 2 man crew) games should get paid equally to varsity bc they are more difficult to officiate bc of the talent level and the coaches seem more ridiculous.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



Not a chance. Subvarsity should be a stopping point for officials as they develop. One way to have career JV officials is to offer the same pay, an earlier finish, and less pressure.

JV coaches get away with stuff cause officials allow it.

so cal lurker Thu Jan 19, 2017 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 997867)
Some teams have new uniforms almost every season, I get that.

That may not be part of their budget -- and I'm guessing "not" if they get them every year. My son's school varsity gets new uniforms every year, but that's because of a deal with Nike (well, Jordan for hoops . . . he get's a lot of cool swag, too . . .) While my son goes to a Jesuit school, some of the Jordon sponsored schools are public schools from not wealthy areas.

(But I also don't think my son's league of private schools is cheap about paying the refs. My son's school even lectures the parents at the parent meeting about *not* yelling at refs, explaining that one of the biggest obstacles to having better refs, especially for frosh/JV, is that so many quit because it isn't worth the abuse.)

zakman2005000 Sat Jan 21, 2017 02:11am

snip..[QUOTE=crosscountry55;997816]

2. I had a D1 Boys Varsity game last night with a full gym, a somewhat hostile crowd, an ignoramus coach and two player technicals for dumb stuff. For my 3 hours of active fight prevention efforts I received.....$50.

Let me preface this comment as a remote northern WI official that I don't really care about the pay, but this is insane. I haven't worked a three man game in the past three years for less than $80. Yes, we don't get mileage, but a review of my schedule shows that 3/4 of my games are within 40 miles one way with the longest trip being 75 miles. You can do the math on the mileage reimbursements split 3 ways.

Fortunately for us, our conference assigners have been very proactive and have found the school administrators to be receptive to the fee schedule. I guess the takeaways are twofold:

1. At least for me, the fee increase in exchange for mileage reimbursement has worked out pretty well. The inference that were getting the short end of the stick by forgoing mileage just isn't accurate.

2. Were very fortunate up here as the laws of supply and demand appear to be on our side, as I've heard that one conference up this way will actually be going to $90/game next year.

My sincerest hopes that you guys get some pay increases going forward.

crosscountry55 Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakman2005000 (Post 998048)
Let me preface this comment as a remote northern WI official that I don't really care about the pay, but this is insane. I haven't worked a three man game in the past three years for less than $80. Yes, we don't get mileage, but a review of my schedule shows that 3/4 of my games are within 40 miles one way with the longest trip being 75 miles. You can do the math on the mileage reimbursements split 3 ways.

Fortunately for us, our conference assigners have been very proactive and have found the school administrators to be receptive to the fee schedule. I guess the takeaways are twofold:

1. At least for me, the fee increase in exchange for mileage reimbursement has worked out pretty well. The inference that were getting the short end of the stick by forgoing mileage just isn't accurate.

2. Were very fortunate up here as the laws of supply and demand appear to be on our side, as I've heard that one conference up this way will actually be going to $90/game next year.

My sincerest hopes that you guys get some pay increases going forward.

Fascinating. I worked for a year in Kansas and the statewide spread was $70-$85, all for three-person (70 or 75 urban, 85 in the rural west). In Wisconsin, similar setup, but the spread is over twice as large ($50-$85). Sheesh.

So the budget "issues" that Rich alludes to don't seem to be an issue up north; the fees are higher despite a lower per capita income and, presumably, similar admissions prices at the gate. However, in said rural northern areas, do many schools not have frosh and JV teams? If so, that would be a lot less money to spend on officials on any given Tuesday or Friday night, making it easier to stomach the higher varsity fees. Out of curiosity, for those schools who do have frosh/JV teams, what is the 2-person fee range for those games?

Rich Sat Jan 21, 2017 05:24pm

You say "issues" like school are just making stuff up.

I have few schools playing JV2 or FR. Some don't have JV teams. Many of the MKE schools have 4 levels.

I'm not for a second excusing the low pay. But don't think there isn't an issue cause more rural districts do it.

Further, why shouldn't supply and demand not be part of the decision on what to pay people? Till we're all willing to take time off and send a message, what incentive besides good faith do conferences have to fix things?

I've been on the commish side for 3 years. 3-person was brought forward and approved in my first meeting (me along with the outgoing commish) for last season. So schools already increased their spend at the V level by 50% last season as we held the pay at the same level ($60). Expecting schools to then increase again immediately is a tough sell, however we only spent 2 years at $60 and will go to $65 next year with plans to be at $70 within 5 years.

With the state not setting rates, it's a lot more complicated than people think.

SC Official Sat Jan 21, 2017 09:14pm

In SC we get $78 for a varsity DH plus $0.45/mile (minimum $9). I make as little as $87 to as much as $131 for varsity DHs.

The single-game varsity fee is $55. So, apparently the second game is only worth $23. :rolleyes:

deecee Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:01pm

I won't do this for less than $60-$70 a game to be honest. I only work varsity and am at the point where I am happy working about 20 decent-good games a year. I have a young family, full time job, and side business (as well as my wife runs a business which means some things there fall on me too).

I have no interest anymore for games below the varsity level. I don't want to deal with those coaches, who to often are let run free by regular JV guys, and I have not interest in wanting to officiate games that "don't count".

This is a hobby, that once it gets to the point where I am not having fun I quit. Truthfully I'm almost at the point where I may be okay with 10-15 good games. I treat this for what it is to me until it isn't anymore. I enjoy officiating. I don't enjoy officiating to the point where it may feel like a job.

In the end the money isn't the reason to the guys that care and that are good. The money is the reason to the guys that want to do as many games as humanly possible. It all depends what stage of life you are in. The big challenge of getting younger folks into officiating is (1) a$$hole coaches and veterans not addressing the issue (2) stupid rating and classification structures (3) officials thinking they are better than they are.

I started officiating college last year, and it's fun. But I'm at the point where this is probably my ceiling and I have to decide if the effort for college is worth it. Realistically, it probably isn't.

I have also found that the officials that do get state games, etc. are usually not very outspoken and go with the flow without causing ripples. I'm just not that guy, and I accept it's shortcomings.

Rich Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 998087)
I won't do this for less than $60-$70 a game to be honest. I only work varsity and am at the point where I am happy working about 20 decent-good games a year. I have a young family, full time job, and side business (as well as my wife runs a business which means some things there fall on me too).

I have no interest anymore for games below the varsity level. I don't want to deal with those coaches, who to often are let run free by regular JV guys, and I have not interest in wanting to officiate games that "don't count".

This is a hobby, that once it gets to the point where I am not having fun I quit. Truthfully I'm almost at the point where I may be okay with 10-15 good games. I treat this for what it is to me until it isn't anymore. I enjoy officiating. I don't enjoy officiating to the point where it may feel like a job.

In the end the money isn't the reason to the guys that care and that are good. The money is the reason to the guys that want to do as many games as humanly possible. It all depends what stage of life you are in. The big challenge of getting younger folks into officiating is (1) a$$hole coaches and veterans not addressing the issue (2) stupid rating and classification structures (3) officials thinking they are better than they are.

I started officiating college last year, and it's fun. But I'm at the point where this is probably my ceiling and I have to decide if the effort for college is worth it. Realistically, it probably isn't.

I have also found that the officials that do get state games, etc. are usually not very outspoken and go with the flow without causing ripples. I'm just not that guy, and I accept it's shortcomings.



I respect all of that.

I am still one of the 50-60 games a year people --I don't care much about the level of pay except that I feel I owe it to others to be an advocate for better pay and working conditions. The difference between $50 and $80 isn't going to improve my life.

I am at my ceiling -- I work HS games and a handful of junior college games and that's it. But my kid will be in HS in 3 years and I expect things to slow. I'm also 30 years in and without a move to 3-person I probably would've retired before I hit 50. Not cause I can't work 2, but because the game has moved past officials calling a really good game that way, especially in fast, physical games, and I wasn't having a lot of fun the last few years we worked 2.

crosscountry55 Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998084)
You say "issues" like school are just making stuff up.

I have few schools playing JV2 or FR. Some don't have JV teams. Many of the MKE schools have 4 levels.

I'm not for a second excusing the low pay. But don't think there isn't an issue cause more rural districts do it.

Further, why shouldn't supply and demand not be part of the decision on what to pay people? Till we're all willing to take time off and send a message, what incentive besides good faith do conferences have to fix things?

I've been on the commish side for 3 years. 3-person was brought forward and approved in my first meeting (me along with the outgoing commish) for last season. So schools already increased their spend at the V level by 50% last season as we held the pay at the same level ($60). Expecting schools to then increase again immediately is a tough sell, however we only spent 2 years at $60 and will go to $65 next year with plans to be at $70 within 5 years.

With the state not setting rates, it's a lot more complicated than people think.

There's a lot couched in here, all respectable. I don't mean to be ignorant of the schools' plight. But I do think their budget plight is more perceived and ingrained then anything. It is solvable. Other states, many without state office rate-setting involvement, have solved this. We're just behind, I guess. Sounds like WA and SC are behind with us (actually a little worse).

I highlighted the red sentence for a reason. I think we may be on the verge of a breaking point already. I don't foresee many officials unionizing to force change, but I do see the supply of officials starting to get tapped out in the Milwaukee area. Last Monday an assignor posted an opening for a 5:30 JV girls game on Friday (original official had bugged out, presumably for a varsity game somewhere else). He sent the email again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday. No takers. On a busy Friday night there just aren't that many folks available. The game magically got filled at the last minute, but I'm sure it took begging and pleading by the assignor. I'm thinking....maybe if the assignor had just told the school, "Sorry, I've got no one available for your $40 JV game; you'll have to cancel the game," a message would have been sent. If that were to start to happen routinely, the assignor could tell the conference ADs, "Look, I'm trying to get the games filled, but you're just NOT making the fees attractive enough to new and veteran officials alike; consider $50 for JV and $70 for varsity and you'll attract new talent to the avocation and encourage upward desire. Meanwhile we'll be more encouraged to get involved in training and development in exchange for the pay increase."

Of course they'd fire the assignor, but you can only ignore the problem for so long. Eventually the chickens come home to roost.

crosscountry55 Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 998087)
I only work varsity and am at the point where I am happy working about 20 decent-good games a year....Truthfully I'm almost at the point where I may be okay with 10-15 good games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998088)
I respect all of that.

I am still one of the 50-60 games a year people.

I respect it, too. But I couldn't work only 10-20 games a year and stay sharp, especially for good games. I find that after a long break I'm very rusty. Without very frequent court time, I'm just not as good an official. That's just me, of course. I'm sure others don't need the reps as much as I do. For me, though, reps are critical to my success.

Rich Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:29am

Depends on the school. While some use assigners, all my schools hire their own JV and lower officials.

Some are feeling the pinch of the reschedules right now. Tangent alert.

I would hope that officials aren't dumping JV assignments for varsity ones. Say what you want, but officials signed a contract to work those games and "getting a varsity offer" doesn't void that contract. I'm happy to work with people, but they should be finding subs to offer to the schools or the assigner. And this will sound really foreign to those that live elsewhere.

I've already quietly fired a couple of people this year who dumped one of my varsity games for another. Quietly cause they just won't get availability sheets when I assign my next season. Is it worth losing a conference and 4-6 games or more as well as the possibility of losing postseason eligibility to go work a "better" game?

crosscountry55 Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998099)
I've already quietly fired a couple of people this year who dumped one of my varsity games for another. Quietly cause they just won't get availability sheets when I assign my next season. Is it worth losing a conference and 4-6 games or more as well as the possibility of losing postseason eligibility to go work a "better" game?

Nope.

I have worked in six states now, and though it sucks being the new guy all the time, I do find that I catch up quickly in the "favor" of assignors because I always manage my availability diligently and honor my commitments. Despite my newness, my schedules quickly get good. Even in Wisconsin (despite my "vent" about crews and contracts before the season started, to be honest I've done all right this year).

To all new officials reading, heed this. At least at the high school level, 75% of the relationship between you and your assignor has nothing to do with how you call a game on the court. Take care of your assignor and he/she will take care of you. It's that simple. Well, maybe go to a camp once in a while, but otherwise it's that simple. ;)

Rich Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 998100)
Nope.



I have worked in six states now, and though it sucks being the new guy all the time, I do find that I catch up quickly in the "favor" of assignors because I always manage my availability diligently and honor my commitments. Despite my newness, my schedules quickly get good. Even in Wisconsin (despite my "vent" about crews and contracts before the season started, to be honest I've done all right this year).



To all new officials reading, heed this. At least at the high school level, 75% of the relationship between you and your assignor has nothing to do with how you call a game on the court. Take care of your assignor and he/she will take care of you. It's that simple. Well, maybe go to a camp once in a while, but otherwise it's that simple. ;)



Or as I've said many times, dependable trumps good.

(And this is a gross oversimplification...)

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:34pm

Little Corner Of Connecticut ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 998097)
I think we may be on the verge of a breaking point already ... I do see the supply of officials starting to get tapped out in the Milwaukee area. Last Monday an assignor posted an opening for a 5:30 JV girls game on Friday .. He sent the email again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday ... On a busy Friday night there just aren't that many folks available ...

We're having similar problems here. We have about 250 officials covering about 75 high schools (most with boys, girls, freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as well as many middle schools. No competition here, IAABO is the only kid on the block for high school basketball. Even with subvarsity officials working freshman/junior varsity doubleheaders, if a couple of guys get injured, or sick, or decide to take a three day ski weekend up north, we're having trouble covering really busy nights, usually Fridays. Sometimes we have to assign varsity officials to junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders, something that is greatly frowned upon by athletic directors, and varsity coaches, who want fresh officials for their varsity games. Game fees for 2016/2017: varsity fee: $94.63, subvarsity fee: $61.39, almost all two person games.

Rich Sun Jan 22, 2017 01:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 998104)
We're having similar problems here. We have about 250 officials covering about 75 high schools (most with boys, girls, freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as well as many middle schools. No competition here, IAABO is the only kid on the block for high school basketball. Even with subvarsity officials working freshman/junior varsity doubleheaders, if a couple of guys get injured, or sick, or decide to take a three day ski weekend up north, we're having trouble covering really busy nights, usually Fridays. Sometimes we have to assign varsity officials to junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders, something that is greatly frowned upon by athletic directors, and varsity coaches, who want fresh officials for their varsity games. Game fees for 2016/2017: varsity fee: $94.63, subvarsity fee: $61.39, almost all two person games.

I laugh at that. They want fresh officials and then use 2-person crews.

Cry me a river.

Hire 3 to work both JV/V and it helps with both "problems", doesn't it?

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2017 01:37pm

Foul Problems ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998106)
They want fresh officials and then use 2-person crews.

Years ago, if a junior varsity official didn't show up for a game (traffic, schedule error, etc.) and the varsity official was at the site, the varsity official had to get permission from both varsity coaches to jump into the junior varsity game.

The winningest, and most influential, coaches in the state coaches association, who play full court defense, and man to man defense, are erroneously afraid that their best players will get in more foul problems with three officials. The state coaches association has sway over the high school interscholastic sports governing body. A few urban rivalries have three persons crews, but otherwise three officials aren't used until the quarterfinals of the state tournament.

And, of course, it's a little bit about money.

Note: Officials fees, in all sports, are tied to the state average teacher salary increase every year. I've gotten a basketball fee raise every year for the past thirty six years. Next year, officials in all sports have decided to accept a fee freeze due to state budget reductions in local school funding.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3775/1...8029f778_m.jpg

Mbilica Sun Jan 22, 2017 02:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 998107)
Years ago, if a junior varsity official didn't show up for a game (traffic, schedule error, etc.) and the varsity official was at the site, the varsity official had to get permission from both varsity coaches to jump into the junior varsity game.

The winningest, and most influential, coaches in the state coaches association, who play full court defense, and man to man defense, are erroneously afraid that their best players will get in more foul problems with three officials. The state coaches association has sway over the high school interscholastic sports governing body. A few urban rivalries have three persons crews, but otherwise three officials aren't used until the quarterfinals of the state tournament.

And, of course, it's a little bit about money.

Note: Officials fees, in all sports, are tied to the state average teacher salary increase every year. I've gotten a basketball fee raise every year for the past thirty six years. Next year, officials in all sports have decided to accept a fee freeze due to state budget reductions in local school funding.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3775/1...8029f778_m.jpg

This is an interesting perspective. In my side of Connecticut, we have a few preps and one postgraduate school which hire 3 officials for every game. But those games really are at a higher level than the regular high school game.

The fees are interesting. Basketball costs a LOT less to a school than football, despite the fewer games in football. That is because in football, each of the 5, 6, or 7 on field officials get the same varsity fee as any varsity official in any other sport, not to mention the equipment and larger coaching staffs. Plus schools hire another official to work the clock and pay him or her approximately 2/3 of a varsity fee. (If only we had paid timers in basketball!) Yet, football is not nearly the kind of cash cow in CT compared to some other states.

I have long advocated that schools hire 3 officials for soccer, basketball, baseball, and softball. The ADs I talk to are actually in favor of it. It is worth the money to them. Our local middle school conference even voted to have 2 officials instead of 1 for JV middle school games. At every level, the game gas become more of a wide open game, with teams spreading their offense, running the full court press on defense, and shooting more shots from outside the arc than working it into the post. I think most people would easily see the benefit of paying a 3rd official. The issue isn't the fees, it's lack of enough referees. It is the same problem in soccer, where the state uses 2 man until the state quarterfinals (I believe). Just not enough refs...

just another ref Sun Jan 22, 2017 03:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 998104)
Sometimes we have to assign varsity officials to junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders, something that is greatly frowned upon by athletic directors, and varsity coaches, who want fresh officials for their varsity games.


Two things here: First, are you saying that some think you can't work more than one game in a day and still be "fresh" enough for the second one?

Second, even if you only work one, you still have had all day to get tired doing something else. Most of us have day jobs, some obviously more strenuous than others.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2017 04:41pm

The Times They Are A-Changin' (Bob Dylan, 1964) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 998111)
Two things here: First, are you saying that some think you can't work more than one game in a day and still be "fresh" enough for the second one?

Second, even if you only work one, you still have had all day to get tired doing something else. Most of us have day jobs, some obviously more strenuous than others.

1) Yes.

2) Then it would be day job, game #1, and game #2.

Things are slowly changing. Athletic directors, and coaches, are realizing that our local board is having trouble assigning officials to cover all games, especially Friday afternoons, and nights. Most are now accepting of officials covering freshman/junior varsity doubleheaders, and rarely, even junior varsity/varsity doubleheaders.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2017 04:47pm

Coaches ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 998108)
The ADs I talk to are actually in favor of it ...

With a few exceptions (money), it's the same in my little corner of the state. Most athletic directors like the idea. As I stated in a previous post, it's the coaches (I used to belong to the Connecticut High School Coaches Association) who are slowing the progress of moving to three man crews, and the CIAC (state governing body) listens to the coaches. If all the coaches wanted it, and if officials were willing to be a little flexible with fees (and if we could recruit more officials), it would eventually happen here.

JRutledge Sun Jan 22, 2017 05:04pm

The overall problem is that we are often an afterthought until something goes wrong. Then we are the problem and they treat us like we are expendable.

I only work varsity and college ball. I do not have time to work much else. Even when I work a lower level game, the problem is there are other games I can be offered or it interferes with may ability to work the games I wish to work. I work about 45-60 games a year and that is enough. Doing double headers is not something we do either when a varsity game is involved in this part of the state and with the style of play in many places, that is not something most would like to do around here.

I think pay should be considered if you want people to stay. But it is not what is going to get people out in the first place. Also 3 person here has helped keep people and get people motivated to continue.

Peace

Camron Rust Sun Jan 22, 2017 06:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998106)
I laugh at that. They want fresh officials and then use 2-person crews.

Cry me a river.

Hire 3 to work both JV/V and it helps with both "problems", doesn't it?

Sort of....with the same number of games and the same number of officials, every official (on average) will have to work 50% more games under a 3-person system than a 2-person system. So, the overall freshness benefit is debatable. I do think it still leans in favor of 3-person, but it isn't as dramatic as it would be if the number of officials weren't constrained.

Rich Sun Jan 22, 2017 06:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 998121)
Sort of....with the same number of games and the same number of officials, every official (on average) will have to work 50% more games under a 3-person system than a 2-person system. So, the overall freshness benefit is debatable. I do think it still leans in favor of 3-person, but it isn't as dramatic as it would be if the number of officials weren't constrained.



Well, it certainly creates opportunities for those who would struggle to get varsity schedules. For me it means I can work 3-person every day. The years where I worked only a portion that way were worse in that it was a different system every night, which was tough.

just another ref Sun Jan 22, 2017 08:36pm

We still do a mixture of 2 and 3 man, it's strictly up to the home school. But one thing is changing: My last 3 dates have been all 3 man tripleheaders, JV boys followed by girls and boys varsity. Before this year, only once had I ever done 3 man for JV.

Rich Sun Jan 22, 2017 08:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 998134)
We still do a mixture of 2 and 3 man, it's strictly up to the home school. But one thing is changing: My last 3 dates have been all 3 man tripleheaders, JV boys followed by girls and boys varsity. Before this year, only once had I ever done 3 man for JV.



Conferences decide here. If you don't hire 3 you aren't getting the better officials as they aren't seeking 2-person assignments.

BlueDevilRef Sun Jan 22, 2017 09:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 998108)
This is an interesting perspective. In my side of Connecticut, we have a few preps and one postgraduate school which hire 3 officials for every game. But those games really are at a higher level than the regular high school game.

The fees are interesting. Basketball costs a LOT less to a school than football, despite the fewer games in football. That is because in football, each of the 5, 6, or 7 on field officials get the same varsity fee as any varsity official in any other sport, not to mention the equipment and larger coaching staffs. Plus schools hire another official to work the clock and pay him or her approximately 2/3 of a varsity fee. (If only we had paid timers in basketball!) Yet, football is not nearly the kind of cash cow in CT compared to some other states.

I have long advocated that schools hire 3 officials for soccer, basketball, baseball, and softball. The ADs I talk to are actually in favor of it. It is worth the money to them. Our local middle school conference even voted to have 2 officials instead of 1 for JV middle school games. At every level, the game gas become more of a wide open game, with teams spreading their offense, running the full court press on defense, and shooting more shots from outside the arc than working it into the post. I think most people would easily see the benefit of paying a 3rd official. The issue isn't the fees, it's lack of enough referees. It is the same problem in soccer, where the state uses 2 man until the state quarterfinals (I believe). Just not enough refs...



I do a lot of fastpitch and I really don't think we need 3. Maybe 5 plays in an entire year could have needed a third guy. To me, most softball games that have three are just for "looks". A lot of the rotations are just a guy who was in a pretty good position moving to another good position and being replaced by a guy to have the same look. And if it meant getting paid less, then absolutely don't want it. I just don't think it is necessary on a 200 ft field.

Mbilica Sun Jan 22, 2017 09:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef (Post 998147)
I do a lot of fastpitch and I really don't think we need 3. Maybe 5 plays in an entire year could have needed a third guy. To me, most softball games that have three are just for "looks". A lot of the rotations are just a guy who was in a pretty good position moving to another good position and being replaced by a guy to have the same look. And if it meant getting paid less, then absolutely don't want it. I just don't think it is necessary on a 200 ft field.

3 man is very helpful in a number of situations, especially with runners on base. The play at first base with the field umpire in C position is a difficult sell. Double plays can also result in difficult calls back at first. I had a couple plays last year with multiple runners on base and we weren't able to directly observe the tag at first on fly balls to left field. One in particular looked bad for us because we had a play at the plate after fly ball was caught down the line, and the field umpire was only able to get the runner leaving from 3rd. The ball got away from the catcher and the run scored. The catcher then tried to throw out the runner from first, who had tried for 3rd. The ball went out of play. The defense then appealed R1 failing to retouch. We called her out, but we were only guessing. She seemed to have never gone back because she got to 2nd very fast, but my field umpire visibly had no idea on the appeal. Thankfully, we were correct, according to both coaches.

So, I'm not saying that we need 3 umpires very often. It doesn't hurt, and sometimes helps in critical situations. The big problem in all of these 2 man systems (baseball, softball, and soccer) is we only go to 3 man in the later rounds of the playoffs. There, we screw up the mechanics because officials are unused to working 3 man.

I will freely admit, that in many games where I work 5 man in football, we could have gotten away with 4. When I work soccer in low level games, many times I could get away with just 1. The same is true in an uneventful basketball game. However, you never know when you'll need that extra official.

When working 4 man in JV football one game as the referee, we had a collision on a deep pass play in which the the wing official was blocked out, so he didn't have a flag for DPI. The coach was livid. All I could think was that it was a $60 call. That is, $60 would have gotten another official and we could have covered that play.

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Mregor Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 997816)
Setting: Wisconsin. Heard a PSA on ESPN radio this evening. It was the WIAA encouraging prior student-athletes to "stay connected to the game!" and "become a high school sports official." Maybe this ad has been around for a while, or maybe it's new....I have no idea.

Not new. I remember hearing it hen I was there from 1999-2005. I made more than $50 when I was there. Think the Madison schools paid $55 back then. Outliers also pd travel. I've never worked a 3 hour basketball game. I'm not even there for 3 hours total wit evaluating sub varsity officials. Travel, yes but not working.

Rich Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mregor (Post 998183)
Not new. I remember hearing it hen I was there from 1999-2005. I made more than $50 when I was there. Think the Madison schools paid $55 back then. Outliers also pd travel. I've never worked a 3 hour basketball game. I'm not even there for 3 hours total wit evaluating sub varsity officials. Travel, yes but not working.

The Milwaukee area took a pay cut in order to get 3-person solidified -- it was never reinstated. That's how pay has stayed at $50 per official.

When I moved here in 2002, conferences paid $50 to $55 per person, but everything was 2-person. For about 5 years I licensed in Illinois in order to get 3-person experience and worked about 10 dates a year there.

robbie Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:23pm

Does the audience realize that if one buys a Lincoln one does not become Matthew McConaughey?


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