Legal Guarding Position
 

Play: A1 begins a drive to the basket. B2 steps into A1's path, has two feet on the court while facing A1, and just before A1 reaches B2, B2 starts to fall backward. As B2 is falling backward but has not yet fallen all the way to the court, A1 dribbles through B2's torso, which knocks B2 the rest of the way to the court. Since B2 was not completely upright when the contact occurred, who shall be assessed with the foul?
NFHS, NCAAM and NCAAW rulings.

This is HTBT, but still sounds like PC on A1. If you're in LGP and get trucked, you got trucked, whether you fell (even partially on your own) or not.

A player is never penalized for falling away from approaching contact. If B1 is stationary and leans away from contact before being run over by A1, the foul is on A1, whether LGP was ever established or not.

LGP is still part of the equation. Otherwise, I could step in and fall backwards.

But if you do the stepping in is the illegal part, not the falling backward.

Correction...

A player is should not penalized for falling away from approaching contact.

Touche' The bottom line is that falling away should not make what you're doing any worse. If you were legal, you're still legal, and if not......

The only thing negative that may happen is a player who does have LGP may reduce/eliminate contact that would have occurred, turning a PC foul into a no call.

Think of it another way
 

Assuming LGP and the defender is falling away, who's responsible for the contact? If anything the offensive player not only initiates it but does so at a speed faster than if the defender wasn't falling back (i.e., has to cover distance to defender plus distance/speed defender is falling away).

I have two questions.

If the falling back defender completes his avoidance and is now on the ground and the offensive player is going to wreck his knee stepping on him or steps on him is it a block?

When is the defense too late to take a charge? After he picks up his dribble or when it is too late for him to reasonably avoid the defender who has set up LGP?

This is the usual thread on this topic -- one that will not change how anyone calls these plays.

Defense is too late to take a charge if they cannot meet guidelines for establishing LGP.

Dribbler is not entitled to time and space so in theory they defense could land on two feet with their chest millimeters from the driving player (assuming they landed in their own space and not the into the offensive players cylinder) get hit and have it be PC.

The shooter is a little different depending on your rule set and interps. basically LGP must be established before a certain point on an air born shooter generally either before they leave the floor or before their upward motion starts depending on your rule set. Players cannot move to maintain LGP the same way once the player is airborne.

Legal Guarding Position ...
 

Rich is right. You will get different answers. Here's what I do..,If the offensive player has such a head of steam that he's going to run defense over regardless then I will call charge. The plays that would have been nothing if he stays up I will have nothing or if it causes people to trip I will call a blocking foul.

There are things in rules I question based on how game is played and coached. As a coach and player, if I or my kid doesn't stay in for contact, falls early, then I don't expect a charge call. I don't know a single coach who will say he's entitled to fall early. That's something a rule maker came up with. That's my opinion. As the coach of the defense I'll sure take it but I don't expect it. I'm not sure who comes up with some of these rules.

And moving backward is different than falling early. Moving backward entire body goes back.

Unless you have an area where officials that wont call a charge if a kid was set and the ball handler started from the division line, any coach that teaches players to take a charge wants that call.

Natural reaction of a person about to take a hit is to either turn away or start to fall, it reduces force of contact. That's why the rule is there.

Sorry, I just don't agree. I do not know one coach on the planet who coaches it's ok to fall early. I can live with turning away. Falling early is an entirely different animal. And I promise you it is not safer. When player takes hit he bounces away. When he falls early it's a guarantee the offense will fall on top of him. Chances good he Bounce his head off floor. Been there done that....which may very well explain my posts....

I didnt say they teach to fall away early. I said its the natural reaction.

It is a very natural reaction. I read your post to say coaches want that call. I guess I'll say they want every call. But they don't expect getting that call if their player falls down early. Games just never been played that way. Falling down early is a conversation referees have here. Coaches teach kids to take contact.

As a coach I don't want my player falling early. Much more likely to get landed on and more likely to get pinned with a blocking foul.

Really depends on the situation but I generally call this a block as the falling players legs trip the opponent.

I agree there is a distinction betw falling early and moving backwards; furthermore, no coach in his right mind would teach their defenders to "fall early"--despite the theoretical correctness of action with regard to LGP status. I addition to the high potential for head injury [which is results from A1's acceleration into a B1 that is ''pulling'' the contact] there is also the toughness factor that players must develop by conditioning themselves to contact. I agree, there are a few rules that seem as though they were 'made in a vacuum'.

Again, if the offense has a head of steam and would have killed him anyway I will call the charge. He's actually going to take more pain falling early.
The plays where offense comes in and jumps off two feet, defender starts fall, and offense comes down and trips are ones I call block. If he stays up no one goes to floor. I consider it a trip.

I wouldnt teach it either, because I wouldnt want to give any excuse for an official to no-call or call a block.

are you implying that the ref won't make the correct call?

You shouldn't want to teach it because you'll get your kid hurt. You should think more about them than an official's call. What you say is an "excuse" I say is making kid play the game it's always been played and expected to play. Again, the only people talking about falling early being ok are referees. Just never enters coach/player thinking.

I'm implying that falling back early makes it more likely I'll no call the play, yes.

We're in the sales profession as officials. Make a call harder for me to sell, I may just not make it.

Yes.

I dont know what it is, and this is starting to change, but for years in this area if you made a charge call, you may as well have two heads. Block is/was regarded as the safe call.

Used to work with some guys that if they did make a charge call, I had a hard time keeping the whistle in my mouth from my jaw dropping.

You know Sniper, I tell people that I'm not going to split hairs on block charge. I know how hard it is to get a kid to hang in there. I will call the charge for that reason and to tell offense out of control is not going to end well. I do need to see the contact. If it's there I'll reward the kid. I just don't/can't do it for falling early unless I know he'd have been creamed anyway.

I understand it's a natural reflex...I just used to get an ass chewin for it. (There's the truth of it. Deep seated anguish)��

Did the defender's legs establish and maintain LGP?
If so, I got a PC foul as far as NFHS goes.

I think we're discussing different terms.

I agree that falling early will more likely result in a no call. If the defender is falling already, it is easy to make the argument that, even if there is contact, he was not disadvantaged. But if the defender is stationary and/or has LGP, and moves completely away from the offense, his feet didn't kick out toward the dribbler/shooter, then there is no way this should result in a blocking foul.