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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 07:18pm
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End of game part 2

Okay, I saw something last night I've never seen in 15 years of officiating. This happened in the game prior to mine. Was watching. This will take a while to lay out, so be patient.

Less than 5 seconds left in regulation, team A down by 2. A1 scores with 2.8 seconds to tie game. Team B coach immediately calls timeout, C gives timeout and sounds whistle more than once and came running towards table, gym is loud and packed and nobody hears whistle, as timeout whistle is sounding, B1 is inbounding ball, and it is stolen by A1, A1 goes to shoot ball and is fouled by B1, official on endline calls foul, and gives intentional foul sign. All of this happening while the clock is running out.

So we have a timeout, clock doesn't stop, intentional foul prior to clock expiring. What are you going to do?

Last edited by OKREF; Sun Jan 08, 2017 at 07:24pm.
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Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 07:45pm
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Gonna put 2.8, or whatever time I observed, back on the clock, and proceed with the timeout.
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Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 08:45pm
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Meet with partners.

Explain to both coaches at the same time.

Award the timeout with 2.8. Everything else came after the timeout and is to be ignored.

If possible, avoid giving technical fouls to teams for coaches, players, and fans not being happy with the decision.
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Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 09:45pm
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It doesn't matter whether anybody heard the initial whistle or not. The fact of the matter is the official (the C in this case) awarded Team B the timeout after the made basket. What happens after that is moot. Unless something flagrant happens, such as a fight.
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Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 10:46pm
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For those saying you ignore everything after the unheard whistle, how do you reconcile the OP with 10-4-7?
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Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 10:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
For those saying you ignore everything after the unheard whistle, how do you reconcile the OP with 10-4-7?
Order of occurance.

Grant the timeout, and afterwards award the free throws and possession accordingly.
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Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 11:02pm
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My point being that of the three prior answers: one answer specifically said you ignore everything after the timeout (which I assumed included the intentional foul), one suggested that you ignore everything unless flagrant (an intentional foul does not have to be flagrant), and one did not reference the foul at all.

How do you reconcile those positions with 10-4-7?
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Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 11:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
My point being that of the three prior answers: one answer specifically said you ignore everything after the timeout (which I assumed included the intentional foul), one suggested that you ignore everything unless flagrant (an intentional foul does not have to be flagrant), and one did not reference the foul at all.

How do you reconcile those positions with 10-4-7?
Sorry, I didn't include intentional fouls.
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2017, 04:07am
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Unfortunately (in this case), intentional fouls are not ignored because the ball is dead. They just become T's. Intentional contact is always penalized.

Report the timeout. Report the T. Let the timeout occur. Resume after the timeout with FTs for the T.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Jan 09, 2017 at 04:54am.
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2017, 04:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Unfortunately (in this case), intentional fouls are not ignored because the ball is dead. The just become T's. Intentional contact is always penalized.

Report the timeout. Report the T. Let the timeout occur. Resume after the timeout with FTs for the T.
Camron is correct. Also, restore the time to whatever the TO-granting official observed.
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2017, 10:52am
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Have a conference with your partners to establish the following:
1) which team called the time out. (Team B)
2) where was the status of the ball when the timeout was granted. (assuming it was before the throw-in started)
3) how much time should be put back on the clock. (2.8 seconds)
4) are we SURE the foul was intentional?

Assuming the answer to #4 is yes, do the following:
  • get both coaches together, tell them what's going to happen
  • Do everything in your power to avoid giving the Team B coach a T after he/she goes nuts. ("How can my kid get charged a T when he didn't know the ball was dead?")
  • put 2.8 back on the clock
  • report the intentional Technical foul to B1
  • grant Team B the timeout
  • resume the game with 2 shots for any member of Team A, and a division-line throw-in for A after the shots.
  • After the game ends, get out of the gym with much quickness.

If it's determined that the foul was NOT intentional:
  • get both coaches together, tell them what's going to happen
  • Do everything in your power to avoid giving the Team A coach a T after he/she goes nuts ("What do you mean that wasn't an intentional foul?")
  • put 2.8 back on the clock
  • grant Team B the timeout
  • Resume the game with a Team B throw-in on the end line.
  • After the game ends, get out of the gym with much quickness.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 09, 2017, 11:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
Have a conference with your partners to establish the following:
1) which team called the time out. (Team B)
2) where was the status of the ball when the timeout was granted. (assuming it was before the throw-in started)
3) how much time should be put back on the clock. (2.8 seconds)
4) are we SURE the foul was intentional?

Assuming the answer to #4 is yes, do the following:
  • get both coaches together, tell them what's going to happen
  • Do everything in your power to avoid giving the Team B coach a T after he/she goes nuts. ("How can my kid get charged a T when he didn't know the ball was dead?")
  • put 2.8 back on the clock
  • report the intentional Technical foul to B1
  • grant Team B the timeout
  • resume the game with 2 shots for any member of Team A, and a division-line throw-in for A after the shots.
  • After the game ends, get out of the gym with much quickness.

If it's determined that the foul was NOT intentional:
  • get both coaches together, tell them what's going to happen
  • Do everything in your power to avoid giving the Team A coach a T after he/she goes nuts ("What do you mean that wasn't an intentional foul?")
  • put 2.8 back on the clock
  • grant Team B the timeout
  • Resume the game with a Team B throw-in on the end line.
  • After the game ends, get out of the gym with much quickness.
You forgot the most important part - call your assigner as soon as possible to alert him/her of the sh!tst0rm they are about to receive.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 09, 2017, 12:31pm
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How exactly does one determine that a foul isn't an intentional foul after an official signals the foul as such?
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2017, 12:57pm
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It's pretty hard to undo this train wreck after the fact.

Of course if the other official didn't signal an INT at the spot, it would be *easy* to walk that back / ignore that.
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2017, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
How exactly does one determine that a foul isn't an intentional foul after an official signals the foul as such?

Go to the guy that made the call and give him additional information. "Look, timeout was called and the ball was already dead. What have you got?"

Hopefully he'll say "Nothing, time out."
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