To T or Not to T--What Would You Have Done?
 

Interesting situation happened to us yesterday morning.

Had a Frosh boys A/B doubleheader yesterday morning. Rival schools, and both teams had one loss between the two of them thus far.

My partner and I walked out to the floor for a 9:00 AM start. Green is warming up on their end, but white is nowhere to be seen. The scoreboard clock is at 12:00. At 10:30 my partner walks over to the table. White had started to trickle in and warm up, but no coach, no book at the table. At 9:00 or so on the scoreboard clock, White's coach comes into the gym with the book in hand. My partner told him we'd be starting with a technical. The coach said but wait, it's only 8:49! Sure enough, the clock on the wall says 8:49.

My partner gave him the benefit of the doubt, and we did not start with a technical.

Put yourself in my partner's shoes here. What would you do? What about for a varsity game? Interested to hear what you guys would do.

Freshman boys' game? I wouldn't have called the T even if it was 8:51.

I would have figured out which clock we needed to use and penalize (or not) from there. I don't want to get a rep as the hard ass who gives a bunch of T's but this is a rule that has been around since clocks were invented. I've stopped being lenient on this stuff and with uniform stuff. For me, I get sick of hearing the excuse that " the refs the other night didn't care/make us fix it/penalize" and I have decided that I won't be the reason a ref hears that excuse down the road.

Freshman Saturday morning game, I would not do much of anything with that kind of situation. Often you have a hodgepodge of situations and would not dare penalize a team when things are so disorganized. Get to the game and play the game. I do not care what the clock says.

Peace

9AM freshmen?

Odds of having an administrative technical around here for something like this at that level on a Saturday morning are exactly zero. I'd consider myself fortunate that everyone is in place BY 9AM for one of those.

Then again, I have never seen a "freshman rivalry" game or an official who knew a school's freshman team's record before, either.

I think your partner should have discussed with his partner(s) the value of giving a technical foul for a 9:00 AM Freshman Boys game for the book not being at the table. Perhaps, as a crew, you could decide on whether it is something your association would want enforced.

I do think your partner was right to rescind the technical when it was discovered that it was before 8:50.

I don't know many officials who like to start the game with a technical.

I can think of several schools that if they play their rival, it has nothing to do with previous records. It is the atmosphere of the particular schools involved.

I could even see and have seen coaches get very testy about things done or not done in these situations, even at the freshman level.

Peace

Around here you'd have about 20 people in the gym at 9am, not including the coaches and players. :)

But a rivalry is not always about the amount of people in the gym. It is the attitudes of the participants, which certainly involves the coaches. And if it has been ingrained into them that they are not to like or have to beat their crosstown opponent or the team where the kids grew up together and happen to play at different schools, that could be a reaction.

Peace

To which the proper 9am response is a cup of coffee and an eye roll. :)

I agree, but that does not mean you will not have to deal with them on a more intense level. After all we are in the people business, even when they are goofy.

Peace

I've had exactly 1 T for this. Coach didn't provide the roster until game time. 9 minutes instead of 10 minutes in a Saturday morning subvarsity game, I'm just grateful he was there in time to get everything set up.

You guys are way too concerned about what time the game is and on what day.

Apply the situation to a 7 pm varsity start with no game before it.


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The point really isn't the time of day. The point is most people don't treat freshman games the same with this type of application.

You can't compare it to a 7 pm varsity game because it's not that. Compare it to a 7 pm Monday night freshman game, and my answer is the same. I'm really not calling this unless we end up having to delay the start of the game for the scorer to get the book ready.

Why would I?

If I showed up an hour before a 9am freshman game (like I do for a varsity game) I'd sit in the parking lot waiting for someone to let me in the door.

Well there are differences in a 7pm varsity game. There usually is a game before that game. And the schools have been there for some time. So yes I would treat it differently as there is usually plenty of time put on the clock and the teams are already there long before the game starts. A game in the morning on a Saturday, sometimes you have issues of the team getting there. So I would like to even know why the coach was coming out so late and it is possible that someone not authorized started the clock without anyone knowing. The actual time of the game is relevant IMO.

Peace

As my partner said to me when he came back to stand by me across from the table, he was looking for any way possible to avoid the technical. He was very glad to look at the clock and see that the coach was indeed on time for the 9 AM start.

I've had games where teams are late. Nothing we can do about it and there's often nothing the team can do about it...bus trouble...traffic...whatever. Never had a technical because of stuff like that. Stuff happens.

What was odd in this situation was that it was the home team that was late getting to the court and the home coach that was nearly late with the book.

Even if i was inclined to call a T in this situation in a freshman game (and I'm not, for reasons previously mentioned by several posters previously)...

Home book is the official book. Players were listed in the home (official) book that the coach was carrying with him, and the visitors had their roster provided to the scorer (well, to the scorer's table, at least, and there's NO FSCKING WAY I'd punish the visiting team for not having their names in the home team's book at the 10:00 mark in a situation like this). So there's nothing to penalize.

I have no idea whether or not the visitors in this situation had their roster at the scorer's table. Assuming they did, obviously they wouldn't be penalized. That wasn't even a point of conversation.

If you ignore the type of game this is...

The point is that since the official scorer is likely to be the person with the home book, there are no grounds for a technical foul in the first place. Unless you have proof the visiting team didn't have their roster and starters available to give to the official scorer prior to the ten minute mark.

Toss it up, work the game.

Too much concern over penalizing someone. It's 9am on a Saturday, it's a freshman game. Pick your battles better.

As stated above, my partner was looking for any excuse to not assess a technical foul. He got what he was looking for, and we moved on.

Let's say, though, that the conditions are "right" to assess the technical. The visitors coach knows the rule and wants the tech enforced.

You could...enforce the technical, knowing that the coach wanting the tech is correct by rule. Or, you could tell him, no coach, it's a freshman game on a Saturday morning, we're not going to enforce the rule.

Where I work, we're told to enforce the uniform rules at every level. Don't know why we would ignore this rule just because it's a freshman game.

There are a lot of assignors in this area that do not want you to be T'ing up everyone for book stuff most of the time either. Again, I really would not care about if they had a certain amount of time, I think I would find a reason to not have that issue. Heck you can always stop the clock on the game clock until you have both teams on the floor. Do everything not to have that situation. It just starts the game in a bad way and then you have to debate how right you were for several minutes. Not worth it most of the time at that level. The only way I would do that is if the conference had a policy and they just did not follow it. But sometimes you do not have even 10 minutes on the clock so you are reaching for the enforcement of this rule.

And I would like to know who wants uniform rules enforced at all levels. Mostly the people I work for say we are to be "technical" at the varsity level. Do what we can to allow them to play at the other levels.

Peace

Mostly on the girls' side, but it's becoming an issue on the boys side as well with the prevalence of "tights" and long sleeves. This is what we've got an eye out for in the pregame, right? Taking care of uniform issues before the game starts so that we can just play when it's time.

This is not a uniform issue, this is a book issue. And unless we are talking about things like tight colors or uniform colors, we are often ask to not nit pick something like what color jersey is worn if that is all the school has. Like if a home team had only gold jerseys, I probably would not do a thing if that is all they had. They are often passed down those uniforms and not the ones that are bought in the first round.

Peace

Here is your answer...
If that's what your boss wants, why even ask us?

Right, of course. I know what you mean. And you're right, I am talking about accessory colors and all that.


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I asked merely out of curiosity.


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If it's at the 9 minute mark rather than the 10, I'm not calling it and I will let the coach know that as well. It's Saturday morning (or Monday night), we're going to be relaxed on that a bit. I can tell you for a fact the subvarsity assigner in my area would expect as much, and any coaches who want otherwise are new. If he pushes, I'll just advise him that at some point he's going to appreciate that approach from the officials in our area.

If we're actually delaying the start of the game because of it, I'll call the T and move on.

As for your last sentence, there are other rules we (in my area) are more lax on for sub-varsity games, and they're all of this nature. White uniforms for home team, for example. Double (or illegal) numbers "fixed" with masking tape or duct tape.

You said your partner was looking for an excuse not to call the T when the coach is 1 minute late, the only thing I'd need is the fact that it's a freshman game (Saturday morning is irrelevant, mostly). No one here wants that called in those games.

Your area may be different. And the rule is "ten minutes before scheduled start time." If the game is schedule to start at 9 and the home team isn't on the court by 15 til, I'm making sure the clock gets re-set.

I'm all for being on-time, but what if the shoes were reversed. What if you got caught in traffic and were not on the court at 15, should the school start docking your pay?

I'm enforcing this rule if the coach is going to be idiot about it, such as not giving his roster until the last minute for some not so special reason, but as someone else stated, there are bigger hills to do die on.

Common Sense is your friend
 

I do not really see myself starting a 9am Freshman game with a technical foul for an administrative book issue.

That said. Do what is expected by the assinger and powers that be. Just do your best to know what those expectations really are.

In my neck of the woods you don't want to be the guy that calls this T. If you want your schedule to advance.

Along the lines of T selection, how do y'all look at dunking in warmups? JV league game, after the ref crew was on the floor, a couple of those dunks that are loud enough to hear, with no call. That surprised me (though I frankly think the no dunking rule is a bit silly, but that's a separate issue) -- do y'all "not see" those even if you're on the court?

Nope. Someone throws one down, we're starting with free throws.

And no, we don't do the silly "blow the whistle as we're entering the floor thing" either.

I've seen a few reference this on here. Is this a mechanic somewhere????

Yes.

This. Many of our middle schools have a 4:00 start time. As such, a bus that gets caught in unexpected traffic, accident, construction, etc. has meant I've had a couple of games where the visiting team doesn't get into the gym until 3:50 or so.

When that's happened, I wait for the visiting coach to get situated and ask if he or she has a roster ready to give to the home scorer for filling out the official book. Each time, the coach has been happy to oblige right away, so I've seen no need for a T if the coach provides a roster as soon as possible in these instances.

The Stars At Night Are Big And Bright ...
 

I believe that it's in Texas.

+1 and lol

"sure coach we'll go by the book. Make sure you don't step a foot outside the coaches box because by rule its a T."

In many field houses or side gyms, there are no coaching boxes around here ;)

Peace

Sounds like your partner is full of himself and takes 9am freshman games way too seriously.

I won't even begin to apply this to a 7pm varsity contest because this would NEVER happen in that situation. I hate to use the word "never", but let's be realistic. This would never happen. That's why this coach and his players are involved in a 9am Saturday game.

This.

Around here FR games are assigned by the schools. Do stuff like this and you'll have plenty of Saturday mornings free going forward.

I like this response.

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He may have known the teams but yes. I'd be happy everyone was in place to play as well.

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No, dunking in warmups is entirely different than an administrative issue like the one in this thread. A slight touching of the rim may get a "dont do that again" but "loud enough to hear" pre-game dunks are easy and automatic. Should never get to the point of multiple.

That said, there are at least 2 prominent state level officials around here who have basically stated they will never start one of their games with a T for dunking. I'm more lenient than some on many things but I don't share that mindset.

I do not know if this is fair. The problem is that there are different cultures in our large area about what is expected. On one hand some want everything handled a certain way and go to another place and they are apathetic about other things. His partner is probably trying to figure out his way as well and wanted to do what was expected. Not all officials have the experience as some of us to not make a big deal out of these things. A lot of officials working Freshman ball are trying to find their way and is the lowest level of high school that anyone can work. And the coaches do not help as they take their games as kind of a big deal and not put it in perspective as some should. One of the reasons many veterans stop working Freshman ball is the headaches that come with working it and things like this add to those pains.

Peace

Very good point!!

Our association had common approach to the "book" for sub varsity games.....NO Ts for the book not complete at the 10 minute mark. Heck I can't tell you how many times working sub-varsity games that due to weather or traffic that the visitors rolled off the bus and we tossed the ball up with just a few minutes of warm ups. In fact, most times when we had to start with limited warm-ups I told both coaches that there would be no technical fouls regarding the book tonight.

It's not the time, really. It's the Varsity vs Freshman thing. Unless you work in a strange area, surely you have a completely different atmosphere (and level of organization) for varsity than you do for freshman games.

Coach, we've been told not to enforce pre-game book technicals in non-varsity contests.

This is an area where local practices really need to prevail. You don't want to be the only one calling this T at the 9 minute mark, and you don't want to be the only one ignoring it.

I never would consider a T in a varsity game (or any game especially) because the team bus was late. Nothing starts anyway until the team is on site. So not sure how that plays a role. The game time is when the administration says they are ready. And if a team is late due to weather, we do not start the time based on the game. Heck if that is the case, we might not even warm up 10 minutes if that is OK with both coaches or there is some other issue that needs to speed up the process. A book situation would not even be apart of the situation.

Peace

Freshman games in my area usually start at 4:30pm and we're happy to just have the teams there to start the game on time. We don't really enforce the 10 minute rule for sub-varsity games as there is too much outside of the team's control. I'd ask your assigner whether or not they wanted the 10 minute rule strictly enforced for sub-varsity games before I'd start issuing technical fouls for that.

Not sure where you worked but there were many games I did that the visiting team traveled an hour or more to get to the game. The ADs were clear on one issue, the varsity games were to start on-time whether that was 7 or 7:30
so that the visitors could get home at a reasonable hour.

In several of these more rural districts, the same crew worked the jv and varsity games. The bus would pull in for a 5:30 JV game at 5:30. Sometimes in these cases, the referee would be ready to toss the ball for the JV game but the book was still being completed. Therefore, no Ts on the sub-varsity book

I work in the general area of the OPer and I probably work for the person that this game took place. We live in the Chicago land area, which involves the suburbs and even some outside areas. You can be 10 miles away and if you have to take the right road it could take you 45 minutes. So it is not uncommon to have a team late. And ADs here can say all they want about starting on time, but if the team bus breakdowns (happen this football season) we are not starting just because the time says 7:30. And it is also a liability issue if you do not allow the proper warm-up time before a game regardless of game time.

Again, we do not live in the rural area. And the T and even the clock starting before game is not based on only the game time. That might work if everyone is there on time and we have plenty of time before the game. But it is not a hard fast rule or even required the clock match the game. Heck we have games before other games before many of our varsity games. The varsity game often starts not at game time as the prelim game either did not start on time (because a team was late) or it just took too long with fouls or injuries or other unforeseen delays.

Peace

On the freshman games I do, the games mostly don't start before 6 pm. Actually almost any weeknight game I'm available to work doesn't start before six. Traffic in this area, even outside the city limits of Chicago, can be an absolute bear. I've never and will never have a technical foul because the visitors are late getting to the school.

The OP game in question, however, was a Saturday morning affair and it was the home coach that was potentially late to the table with the book. That's why I thought it was kind of an interesting situation and an interesting question to pose.

Definitely not fair to my partner. He's an official who works hard and works all levels. As others in my area can attest, there's a lot of competition to get to a full varsity schedule.

None of us take 9 am freshman games *too* seriously, but we don't blow them off either like some here suggest they might. And JRut is right. Freshman coaches around here tend to think they're coaching in the Big Ten.

So to be clear, you take the book rules more seriously on a Saturday morning than you do a Monday night? :)

Honestly, like I said, I'm not calling this in a freshman game unless it's so late we have to wait for the scorer to fill the book out. At 9 minutes, I'm not even thinking about it.

I don't see anyone here suggesting they would "blow off" a freshman game, regardless of when its played.

What people are saying is that most of us practice some common sense in deciding to deal with administrative book issues in these games.

The guys around here who call Ts for stuff like this are the same ones complaining about how they can't "move up" and their schedules never advance.